Hey everyone, Long time member/lurker. Currently shopping for my first Ferrari (finally!). I've found a gated 6 speed 360 pretty local to me with <20,000 miles. Everything in it's history seems to check out, except for the most recent years. There is a gap from the summer of 2012 to winter 2016. In 2012 there was $13,000 worth of service completed including belts, every type of fluid (gear, washer, brake, coolant, etc.) and a lot of various hoses, gaskets and motor mounts. This is a pre-2001 car and no history of the cam variator recall being performed (calling any Ferrari dealer with the vin can verify this, right?). During this 4 year period the car was driven 7,200 miles with only a registration renewal on record. There was a service in 2015, at a 5000 mile interval, at Ferrari Denver -- but would need to call for the records. The last belt service was in 2012, with the most current inspection of 2016 stating, "Fluids and belts are good". Maybe changed in 2015 where I don't have the records, yet? Is this a car I should walk away from? Or would you not mind a gap in history if a current PPI comes out clean? I've been researching these for the past year or so and have currently started an active search. I've looked at a few cars now and this appears to be in great shape, less a scuff on the rear bumper.
I'm not sure you have enough information due to the 2015 service & 2106 'inspection' - if it had nothing since 2012 to me it would be a walk but there's a chance its relatively current with just a couple of oil changes missing a few years ago Variator can be checked at FNA or dealer as you note Lots of folk here get to precious about older cars - anything can have happened or be about to happen on an older car Part of the answer is also how long you intend to keep the car and as a result hopefully build up a proper service history
Thanks for the reply. As badly as I want the car, I think its a walk as well. But figured I would ask for my own knowledge as I make my way around these cars in the future. All the information I have during the gap is from CarFax. 2012 - serviced @ Ferrari Denver 11,700 miles 2013 - registration 2014 - registration 2015 - serviced @ Ferrari Denver 16,700 miles It's possible that Ferrari Denver has more records than what is included. I'll have to call this week.
Call Denver for invoice, but I would not be overly concerned. After having 13k work in 2012, I would hope the car could make it 4 years with little else. If oil changed during that period I'd be fine with it.
Am I wrong... but if the car was serviced by an Independent shop the records may not show up on the Carfax?. It sounds like the records you have obtained are of the Carfax nature(?) I recently purchased my 360 and I looked for a months for the right car. Records are important. But keep in mind many times owners of these cars will not always be so diligent as you or I in keeping them. Also to consider is the fact that accident paint work may not be on the Carfax as owners will often forego the deductibles and simply pay out of pocket-- especially in a one car accident like clipping the garage door, or a fence post or even just a front bumper repaint to take care of years of road rash. Is this a private owner you are buying from or a Dealer?
Good point. This is from a private owner. The records I have are very slim. Most of what I have are intervals at dealers shown on CarFax, I would need to call the dealers in WI, CA and CO to get actual specifics of what was done at each place. I just see where it was regularly serviced up until 2012, and then detailed records from it's life in Texas the past year. 5 owner car - I'd be 6th.
What do you want? A 6 inch thick book detailing every drive and rub down with a diaper in the garage. You have absolutely no clue if those records are even accurate! Were you there when it happened? Was a friend? What does the car look like now? THAT is what you're buying. Not a new car. Does the PPI show a car that is worth the price they're asking? That's what you're buying. Will you own it? Will you drive it? Will you flip it? I guess that will make a difference in the equation. You have no clue if any of the "records" on this car or ANY car you look at are even accurate. The one way to see if the motor mounts were done is to look if they're the newer style. Even then, has the heat from being driven caused them to bulge and harden? What does the belt service matter if its 5 years out any way.. you're going to get it done regardless. The only thing that matters is whether the belts didn't fail. And you should be able to see that in the PPI. You guys are so picky you talk yourselves out of good cars. Don't buy it. Let the next guy to come along buy it and post here how he bought this great 360 that has been rock solid and a joy to own...
Kind of understand where Curt is coming from. And he makes a valid point as to what you are going to expect or do with the car. From your post it seems you are buying this as a keeper so I get your concerns. Being the 6th owner would be more of a concern for me. I came across several cars in my search to purchase a 360 that were low miles but had several owners. My feeling is a guy who is interested in keeping the car a while is probably a little more respectful of maintenance and treating the car well. Multiple owners conjures up unsettling feelings in me of a guy that just wants to drive the car pedal to the metal and trade it when he's had his fun with it... Next... repeat and resell. My car was a 2 owner car so I obtained pretty good records but truth be told, not complete either. I bought my car from a dealer. It arrived and it had some cosmetic issues. Minor but kind of disappointing nonetheless. I think it's important to admit to yourself even if you inspect the car personally or have a pro do a PPI, you will have some disappointments. That's just comes with the territory of buying a used car. Remember you are not buying a new car. You are never really going to know what has or has not been done conclusively. I agree with Curt, look at it objectively and not just the paper trail. I did not personally inspect the F360 I bought as I am in Florida and the car was in CA. But again, with that said I looked at the car being sold in Nevada, moved to CA. Being a "dry state" car all it's life--- that was a big deal to me. I did have a trusted Dealer who owns a 360 give me a PPI of sorts ($300). He did miss some things but did drive the car, inspect the paint thicknesses with a gauge, and generally went over the car. He did not remove engine covers, lower engine trays, do a compression test, and on and on... It has only 21K miles so not a lot of issues to consider. New clutch (with receipt) @ 21K. Belts done 2 years ago, and no other leaks or issues. Good enough for me to do the deal. Also consider the car was the color, options, and interior I would put up there as my first choice. Something to consider. You're buying a used car and if you find the one you want, really want, then maybe you make some concessions. After all, most everything can be fixed. For me I don't want a car that is a great deal but the color, options--- meh... It has been said here on the board many times that a PPI will not head off every single thing that can be wrong or will go wrong once you take ownership. As for paperwork, what if the owner did a lot of the maintenance himself? Did he keep good records and receipts? And if he did, was he qualified to do the repairs and maintenance he was performing in the first place? Here is where I think Curt was going with his point about look at the car, get a PPI and make a judgement as to what you see in front of you. Good luck, try not to sap the joy out of the experience, and just enjoy the adventure!
Kind of understand where Curt is coming from. And he makes a valid point as to what you are going to expect or do with the car. From your post it seems you are buying this as a keeper so I get your concerns. Being the 6th owner would be more of a concern for me. I came across several cars in my search to purchase a 360 that were low miles but had several owners. My feeling is a guy who is interested in keeping the car a while is probably a little more respectful of maintenance and treating the car well. Multiple owners conjures up unsettling feelings in me of a guy that just wants to drive the car pedal to the metal and trade it when he's had his fun with it... Next... repeat and resell. My car was a 2 owner car so I obtained pretty good records but truth be told, not complete either. I bought my car from a dealer. It arrived and it had some cosmetic issues. Minor but kind of disappointing nonetheless. I think it's important to admit to yourself even if you inspect the car personally or have a pro do a PPI, you will have some disappointments. That's just comes with the territory of buying a used car. Remember you are not buying a new car. You are never really going to know what has or has not been done conclusively. I agree with Curt, look at it objectively and not just the paper trail. I did not personally inspect the F360 I bought as I am in Florida and the car was in CA. But again, with that said I looked at the car being sold in Nevada, moved to CA. Being a "dry state" car all it's life--- that was a big deal to me. I did have a trusted Dealer who owns a 360 give me a PPI of sorts ($300). He did miss some things but did drive the car, inspect the paint thicknesses with a gauge, and generally went over the car. He did not remove engine covers, lower engine trays, do a compression test, and on and on... It has only 21K miles so not a lot of issues to consider. New clutch (with receipt) @ 21K. Belts done 2 years ago, and no other leaks or issues. Good enough for me to do the deal. Also consider the car was the color, options, and interior I would put up there as my first choice. Something to consider. You're buying a used car and if you find the one you want, really want, then maybe you make some concessions. After all, most everything can be fixed. For me I don't want a car that is a great deal but the color, options--- meh... It has been said here on the board many times that a PPI will not head off every single thing that can be wrong or will go wrong once you take ownership. As for paperwork, what if the owner did a lot of the maintenance himself? Did he keep good records and receipts? And if he did, was he qualified to do the repairs and maintenance he was performing in the first place? Here is where I think Curt was going with his point about look at the car, get a PPI and make a judgement as to what you see in front of you. Good luck, try not to sap the joy out of the experience, and just enjoy the adventure!
For what it's worth, I've never purchased one of these old cars that hasn't needed to be sorted. They all need something. Just make sure it wasn't crashed, looks good, and has had reasonable maintenance. Nothing is perfect. I've also done this 8 times with no ppi. I haven't been burned yet. You ask questions and form an overall opinion and let the chips fall. I only flew to see the very 1st one. The rest were done sight unseen based on conversations, photos, and records. I've had surprises, but never a horror story.... knock on wood. Life is short. Make a decision and move on to enjoying what you end up with, better or worse.
Look man, buying a Ferrari is not a logical decision. Does the car turn you on enough that you'd be willing to spend 10-15K or more to sort it out or not? That's how I do it. I bought a 2001 456M that was eleven years old and had zero records, but only 7K miles. It was what I call a rescue. Come to find out is had NEVER had a belt service, had some redneck tech repairs inside the doors, and some electrical gremlins. I didn't care, because it was one of only 15 Rosso Corsa 456's in North America (Including all original 456's and 456M's). It took about $20K to sort it out perfectly over the first few months. But I had my unicorn: Rosso Corsa, Shields, Red Calipers, and a Tan Daytona interior. I went on to put a little over 27K miles on it in just over five years. It was perfectly reliable and I took two long vacations in it, to do US 60 in AZ and the Blue Ridge Parkway. Worth it? Heck yeah! Logical? Er, not in the least. These cars are just cars. With enough money and expertise, any of them can be made perfect. If your budget doesn't include at least $10K extra for unforeseen maintenance requirements, you should increase your budget or buy a less expensive car. I had a $100K budget for the 456: it took $75K to get the car off the lot and around $20K to make it perfect. It was fun! For me. Maybe not others. Highly illogical though. Cheers, George
I appreciate the thought-out and helpful replies! I am looking for a car to keep, not flip. Not looking these as an investment, I've just 'collected' several Japanese cars over the years and haven't sold any. Now that I'm in a position to buy my first exotic, I don't really see ever selling it - outside of unfavorable circumstances down the road. To address Curt's post: I've been a member for 9 years. Along the way I've read every thread about most cars here. Kept up with the changes and gained as much knowledge as I could. Now that I'm in a position to buy a car and have actually begun to experience them (never sat in a Ferrari until 3 weeks ago), I'm starting to learn even more. You can only learn so much through reading... kinda like when you start cutting on people. I feel I'm at that stage now of learning through feel. I was asking if gaps in records were common and if I should investigate any further, or just go with a PPI and run with it. You answered that question eloquently. To those who also replied. I appreciate the feedback. Being that I want to keep this car for a very long time, I want the right car... my definition of this is not the $60,000 passed around car, but also not the $250,000 CS that's still wrapped in plastic. I'm looking for a well-maintained, loved car that lives happily in the middle of these two extremes. I agree the cars are getting "old" - I've seen some that look 20 years old, and some that look 5 years old. I wasn't so concerned about number of owners if everything else checked out. The best way for me to make the decision is bounce ideas off those who have more experience with these cars than I do. I'm not afraid to spend $10,000 - $20,000 in needed items. Most of my other cars are about from the same time period and also require the random failing part be replaced. I just don't want to make the mistake of buying a car with missing records and wind up needing to spend $10,000 every year for the next 10 years and completely rebuild the thing. I would have expected a 360 on the higher end of the price spectrum to have better kept records... but maybe I'm wrong from what I'm reading now? I met up with the FCA of DFW this weekend and everyone was more than welcoming and I enjoyed myself thoroughly talking with various owners. I also appreciate the advice given here. I will take what each of you have said into consideration!
Absolutely not! I've waited 10 years to finally be in the position to buy my first Ferrari. I don't think I've had this much fun in a long time. Talking to owners, dealers and independent shops has been fantastic and overall very positive experience! I look forward to drawing this process out a little longer and even flying out to a few places to see cars. I don't mind having conversations, sharing photos and records and then flying out to see the car prior to purchasing.
In the words of Herman Cain, "Don't let perfect be the enemy of good." If every 360 buyer looked for 100% perfection, no car would ever sell. These cars are 13-18 years old, there are very few unicorns left. On the other hand, this manner of thinking works out great for people like me and Curt. My 360 ('99 gated) had been passed over several times due to "imperfections" like missing tools, missing records, miles, red interior, suspension issues, low asking price, etc. I bought it, put some work into it, changed the interior, did not have to spend much $, and I have a nice car that turns heads just as much as a $100k specimen. I hope you find a car that makes you happy, but a $60k car that needs $10k worth of work is still a better deal than a $80k car that doesn't...
You're VERY kind ... based on the above, don't worry you're going to be absolutely fine with a manual example. I purchased mine with absolutely no records whatsoever over 7 years ago this month with a rather neglected unloved history. It's been a wonderful wonderful experience as the car has the occasional ding, is a euro, has high miles and isn't perfect. So I can enjoy her without constantly worrying. There will be gaps, that's fine IMHO. The key IMHO is does the documentation and the PPI match the car that you have in front of you. If the PPI shows a car that's ALOT more worn on the bolsters than the history might suggest and the carpets really look scraggly and engine bay is trashed... then I'd walk if the price didn't match the condition and seller won't work with you. Parts for the 360 are readily available if you need anything, so it's a really easy car to fix or "restore" to whatever standard you want. You always have the option when it comes to bodywork to go with a used part. Esp for worn parts on the interior, etc. Plenty of owners will buy a car, think they can drive it better than they actually can, and crash it with 2000 miles on it. (NOT like NSX, there is notable understeer and the closer you get to 10/10 handling gets nervous FYI) Also FYI the clutch components are reliable. The one exception I suspect is the thrust bearing in the clutch. It's a design that relies on seals in the clutch housing to maintain pressure in the clutch system. I'm not sure it's as durable as a slave cylinder. Overall they're reliable if you consistently drive them.
When I purchased my '01 360 a year ago this month from a private owner. It was immaculate, had all the tools, manuals in leather pouches, two keys and three fobs. The previous owner had installed Tubi exhaust and aftermarket black wheels to match the black interior. Sticky interior resolved. I talked to the last mechanic that worked on the car and so knew what was done and there were no specific concerns. Car had 17,000 miles and all service had been done except timing belts and I knew about that. However, Carfax told me I am the 6th owner which worried me a little. The car had been as far north as Alaska. As of this month, I have put 4000 miles on it in one year and it has run like a Swiss watch, absolutely no issues at all that I didn't know about beforehand. In this month for belts and yearly maintenance. So it appears that the number of owners didn't seem to matter if everything else falls into place. Probably dumb luck. Image Unavailable, Please Login
This! Do a little investigating. I can tell you even a $40,000 repair doesn't show up on Carfax! I doubt your buying a Garage Queen.. 360's are not built for that in the first place! Good luck... Enjoy!
belts are my pet peeve! It doesnt matter the interval they were replaced at!! Its a totally binary thing. If its running, it doesn't matter. If it blew up it did matter. It is NOTHING like driving a car 20,000 miles without an oil change where the contamination, modifier breakdown, etc can all reduce the wear protection of the oil. Failure to change brake fluid can lead to rust in iron cylinders. A belt - new or old - has NO impact whatsoever on the condition of anything. It either works or it doesn't. Many people like to assume that if they neglected the belt change interval then they also neglected every other maintenance item as well. There is not an absolute link between the two. A point on owners: my CarFax report lists the Ferrari dealer as an owner twice (1st and 3rd)! They were listed as the first owner, I dont know if that is typical or it was because the first driver leased the car or what. They were then listed as the third owner - because the 1st driver returned it in as a lease or traded it in or what... So the third driver could be listed as a 5th or 6th owner, and if the car was auctioned, even the 7th owner.
Once again, the knowledge gained here is invaluable. I have been surprised (albeit I'm not sure why) of the out-pouring of support from the Ferrari community on this forum as well as Facebook and in person. I believe I was just getting anxious as I honestly wasn't sure I'd ever get to this point in my life. I did contact one of the dealers to get specifics of which services were performed. They stated they couldn't release those to me due to privacy rules. I've contacted the current owner to see if they can get the records. It would just be nice to know if the variator recall were performed and make sure it didn't have any large issues that were fixed. I will keep you all updated Hopefully in the next few weeks I'll have my first Ferrari
For the record, variators are a campaign not a recall. One is mandated by the government for safety reasons and the other is done by the manufacturer for customer relations. Despite what many say, they are very different things. There were very few recalls on the 360 but a lot of campaigns.
paralysis by analysis My car had no records when I bought it. However, it was a no stories car via Carfax. That was important to me. It looked great (interior/exterior condition) and it drove great. Started every time. I bought it, did a major and has been creating my own history ever since. So my car has a 12 year gap.
Just make sure the car wasn't crashed and runs/drives well. Other than hidden structural damage, 90% of major problems will be noticeable on a simple test drive. Ultimately, you can either (1) buy this car, do a $3k belt service and take the small risk of a major sorting effort being required; OR (2) pay ~$20k more for a dealer car that is more likely serviced up to date and take a somewhat smaller, but still non-zero, risk of a major sorting effort being required. Drive the car. If it feels right and passes structural inspection then I would buy it. I chose the dealer route, overpaid and didn't do a PPI, but I don't regret that either even though it still required some minor sorting over my first year of ownership...
As others here know, I purchased my car with a full service history. Looked absolutely flawless. I spent 4K in the first six months and just got done spending 14K getting her up to my standard of care and ownership. Be excited about your new car especially a gated one but also allow at least 10K for initial maintenance. In a fit I put mine back up for sale but waffled yet again because every time I walk in my garage or even past an Italian restaurant I remember I actually own a Ferrari which is a cool feeling. Not trying to be a downer but that feeling does and will continue to cost some money.
Sometimes (actually most times) the internet is just a source of constipation and over analysis... especially with first time Ferrari buyers. They think it's some mystical experience. It's a bloody car. Period. Just buy it as you would any used car. Carfax should be taken with a grain of salt. Lots of service and repairs never show up. A CS I was looking at had a perfect Carfax. However, it had been balled up at one point and repaired. The owner paid cash and didn't go through insurance. Hence no Carfax. Just because there are a few service records missing from Carfax, doesn't mean squat. It may have been to a shop that doesn't Carfax. Maybe he did his own fluid changes. It's a private sale..... just ask. At the end of the day, you can only do so much. If you like it, buy it. Service, drive and enjoy it.
