Is a 246 better long term than a 458?

I am looking for a 246 to buy and intend to keep it for ever.... Am I right in thinking that the costs to maintain one might be considerably less than a 458 due to the lack of sensors / electrics etc etc? I know they can cost a lot to restore but a gearbox etc on a 458 is incredibly expensive too. Any thoughts most welcome..

 

id say with a 246 you have less that can go wrong but things will go wrong more often/frequently. if you are going to drive the car alot id say go 458. If its a trophy showpiece then it really shouldn't matter.

 

That's good advice, thank you

 

I'm fairly certain that if you have a good & mechanically strong Dino the running costs are nowhere near a 458. I can guarantee you that in 10+ years time when the electrical gremlins start to horse around the costs will be VERY high to fix outdated electronics. In addition, I'll bet that a Dino will have appreciated a lot while a 458 can be had for cheap. No comparison, the Dino wins by a mile.

 

That's exactly what I'm thinking. Thank you very much.

 

If really depends upon your budget. If it stretches to a properly restored Dino (i.e. one that has had an engine rebuild, suspension rebuild, overhauled cooling system etc) then you should find the annual running costs to be fairly modest in Ferrari terms.

 

Not only costs and complexity of a 458 but just as the parts supply on other current Ferraris, they will dry up. Ask a 355 owner. Ferrari doesn’t do a great job of supporting their new cars as they get older.

The real questions you should be asking yourself is which one you like better and which one is more fun for you. A 458 is digital, a Dino is analog. There’s a saying, “Nothing gets older faster than new!”

Freeman

 

Don't these two cars provide very different experiences? Aside from financial considerations, which one do you think you'll enjoy more ?

 

...sorry, posted this before I saw that Freeman had already made the same point.

 

Dino, all the way...besides, we know everything about Dino, right Dinoland?

Try asking the 458 forum how to fix anything mechanical / electronic, beyond replacing a bulb.

Regards, Alberto

 

Looks like the Dino wins! I think I would enjoy the analogue experience more, manual gearbox etc. I just had to ask the question before committing to the extra purchase cost for a Dino. Thank you all for your helpful replies.

 

Having owned a Dino for at least 10 yrs post it's birth in 1972 some of the facts are real,some questionable. Replacement parts still dry up,costs for reproductions are expensive,some unavailable. The Dino when made spent months at times unpainted,this in turn contributed to one of it's major faults-rust. The nose,door jams,rear,air chambers between metal. It was surprising to see the amount of rust at 4 yrs old in a no snow environment. The Dinoplex unit was another point, but that issue has been solved. The car is not complex as such,was one of the most beautiful Ferrari car ever produced making all the right sounds out of an ANSA exhaust. Carb calibration at times was tough to maintain and tunes were plentiful. Interiors were cheap. I will always miss my 246, investigate before you leap. It was my introduction to Ferrari. A pleasant experience to multi Ferrari ownerships. It's is no longer that Fiat/Ferrari once called, it is no longer that $14,000 car that didn't sell to well for various reasons, it is now a expensive car.

 

Agree on all points. Buy the Dino - you know it makes sense!

 

Dino wins on that front, too, IMO (unless you own a racetrack).

 

You really think they can do that?

 

If I may...

While I've never personally owned a Ferrari, I have been working for Continental AutoSports/Ferrari for 12 years and in those 12 years I've seen a plethora of issues with 246's and 458's alike. HOWEVER the major difference as it relates to your original question is that while yes it is "less" expensive to maintain and repair a 246 compared to a 458, the parts and their availability in addition to technicians with enough actual experience are the true issues.

Standard services and major services aren't the real issue parts wise; it's the problems which happen as the years go by such as simple part deterioration and things of that ilk. 246 parts aren't impossible to come by, in fact most are more or less readily available, but there are parts that are becoming absolutely unobtainum and when that happens your repair is stalled, indefinitely.

As for the actual work on the 246 - and I'm seriously not towing the company line - a Ferrari certified technician is HIGHLY recommended, especially a tech who knows the 246. It's not to say an experienced at-home mechanic can't work on these cars but with all the intricacies and ever-progressing age of the car, it's a wise idea.

Just my two cents!

 

I agree. Mine goes to my local Ferrari agent (Carrs in Exeter) - their head tech really does know his onions when it comes to Dinos (and most other Ferraris, come to that).

 

The 246 Achilles heal: RUST

Having owned one for 15 years, I would not say they are cheap to own. Stuff does go wrong with them just sitting there.

If you look at those who have done a full restoration, most of the issues deal with rust right down to the frame.

They are not "modern" cars. That's a plus and a minus. So it depends on what you are looking for in the driving experience.

 

Actually you shouldn't expect any big issues with the 458, which has proven itself as one of the most reliable Ferraris ever. And as for the gearbox issue - it is not so big anymore, because you don't need to change the whole gearbox anymore.

Buying a 458 will guarantee you a ownership period of at least 5 years without any serious trouble. And as already mentioned by others - with the Dino you will struggle with finding parts, that are out of production and you will need to go to your mechanic much more often. And unfortunately that partly ruins the ownership experiense. With the 458 you will just go with a big smile to your garage assured that it will start and perform well. As for the Dino - you will always wonder if something will not happen with it this time.

And keeping in mind that not all mechanics know what they are doing, this really is an issue and not just so much because of the money, but because it may ruin your ownership experiense.

 

The family Dino (owned for over 30 years) always starts right up if the battery is charged and runs great. The one time it didn't it was just a faulty original coil. Oh, and the brake master cylinder went out at one point.

Besides, any long-term financial evaluation would have to look at depreciation of the 458. In 10 years, a 458 will likely be valued at a quarter of what the Dino will.

 

Maintenance will be an unknown on both cars to some extent. What is guaranteed, in my view at least, is the 458 will certainly depreciate whereas the Dino may or may not. All else equal I think the Dino appreciates and also likely costs less to maintain as well so if you look at total cost (maintenance + depreciation) the Dino is the clear winner.

 

I seriously doubt that an owner of a 458 can replace a bulb or two without having to reset the diagnostics.

 

The 246 is a much simpler car than the 458. Fewer systems, all of it analog. The electrical bits are mostly over the counter. The electrical system is much simpler to deal with. Also, 246s are going up in value, and in 10 years will likely be twice the value of even the best 458.

Most of the older cars will have issues with consumables, such as the cutch system, including the slave and master cylinders (or cable actuators), brake master cylinders, dampers, bushings, alternator, water pump, and of course, the battery... Tuning can be problematic, as the cars have to be "tuned", and knowledge of carburetors and timing is required. Hydraulics have to be flushed and bled to ensure a long, safe life. 'Best if the owner is familiar with these skills, as finding someone old enough that is still working who knows this stuff can be difficult. Find one of those guys, buy a Unisyn, a dial back timing light, brake bleeder and learn how to sync your own carbs and set your own timing. Remember, many of these early cars had 1,500 mile service intervals. If you don't drive it much, you may have to service the car more often, even if you don't drive it.

If the car is brought along to a fine condition, with fresh systems, bushings and other consumables, they are relatively easy to maintain. If used on a regular basis, the fuel tanks kept full (I recommend 100LL avgas if available if there is going to be extended storage), and the battery kept on a trickle charger, it can run for decades without problems.

I have found that long term storage causes the most damage. Keep the fuel tanks full to keep the engine from ingesting condensation, and drive it to keep the sump from gathering too much fuel in the sump, and fuel from washing down the cylinder bores due to too long a run on the manual choke.

While I don't have a 246, I do have a Renault R5Turbo that I bought new and have kept in as new condition. This didn't take heroics, but the car has been kept in a climate controlled garage, fuel tanks full, and the battery charged. I have done little to it in the 3+decades of ownership, and the car has proved to be completely reliable with the acception of occasional battery problems, usually due to extended replacement schedules (my last battery lasted 14 years before it shorted out day before yesterday. Pep Boys had the correct size replacement for about $100).

The trick is to keep ahead of the curve, replacing hoses and components by time if necessary, making sure that the coolant is up to spec, oil changed, belt checked and charging system checked on a regular basis. Drive it... Sitting will kill it.

My Lotus 11 continuation is much the same. Not enough systems in that car to have reliability problems. I got rid of the ignition points, using a magnetic trigger, which eliminated a Lucas weakness. I rewired it myself (in Lucas code), and have no problems whatsoever over a decade and a half and about 40K miles of use... Problems? Sure, the old style water pumps last a few years at best, modern small alternators cure electrical problems, as do Honda based starters. Service occurs at 1.500 mile intervals, and if kept to a schedule, the costs are low, and there are no surprises.

Over the years, the parts situation on the older collector cars has improved dramatically. My R5 Turbo now has better parts support than when it was new. I can get just about anything I need... If I needed anything. What is most lacking is good mechanical support, but I am fortunately qualified in that area, on this particular car.

Now, having said all that, the digital Ferraris can be diagnosed with high quality OBD diagnostics boxes, the new way of working on cars built after the late 80s.
If you understand how the systems work, and can use the scan tool, you can trouble shoot that "check engine light". I maintained my race Mustang A Sedan car that way for 16 years. Sure, the 458 is going to be more complex, but... The later cars have better basic systems, and require less service. If you don't put 10s of 1000s of miles per year on the car, it may be very easy to maintain.

It really gets down to what you believe. Are the early analogue cars easier to maintain? Sure, if you have the skills (or pay someonw with them). Are the later, digital cars more reliable? On a day to day basis, being new, they should be. Provided you service the car properly...

20 years down the road? It depends on how the car was maintained in the first place, and how you intend to maintain it.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Beyond that, all that is left is your expectations regarding performance. '70s cars get to 60 in around 8 seconds... A 458 in round 3... Handling may be a bit different as well. I love the older cars, and find them quaint. I never have to prove their performance, and find then gratifying to drive on the canyons, and at the track.

My next car is going to be a Morgan +8. About as sophisticated as a motorcycle trailer. Should be a good investment for the next 20 years (I will be nearly 90 then).

 

t

Its not just a question of "starting up". Inactivity also takes it's toll on the 246. As I said, water condensation or just plain washing the car can lead to rust. The hydraulics go bad (like the master cylinder) from just sitting there. Oil leaks pop up hear and there. Cables get sticky and the clutch cable can snap over time. The carbs get gummed up with bad gas. I had the gasket break between the gearbox and the engine that made the oil leak both ways. The only way to fix it was to pull the engine. I did the clutch and 2nd gear synchro at the same time.

They are old with old technology. To be honest, they were never designed to be lasting 40+ years. And, a lot of owners of the first 20 years took lousy care of them.

Any comparison to a modern car is naive. They require care or your investment is out the window.

 

And another thing...

Restored cars are desirable, provided that the restoration is a proper one. Fresh consumables are one place to start. New hoses, belts, seals, bearings were appropriate. All the wear points addressed, and then sorted to as new performance (as opposed to condition, which is just shiney new stuff. 'Doesn't mean that the car drives as new. Most restorers miss this important point).

Your 246 may look fantastic, but if it is not in top condition, with fresh parts that wear out with age (as opposed to miles), you will be into a huge investmment, and your car apart for some time as you catch up with the deferred maintenance.

A new or near new 458 is only original once (and always very low mileage), and you can have that advantage going in. If you intend to keep the car "forever", then you have better control over the maintenance situation. You can control the maintenance, rather than have to rely on the work done by many different hands over decades of use (or misuse).

I have always started with new or near new cars in most cases. I have never been let down by a car that I acquired new and kept for 20 or 30 years, or one that I completely remanufactured myself (everything from the door latches to the wiring), and sorted out to as new performance myself.

As for value, it is likely that the 458 will increase in value, but not at the same rate as the 246. But you never know... In the last 5 years, the R5 Turbo has increased in value more than 500%. It will depend on how much wealthy millenials like the 458 in 20 years. Yes. I suspect that they will like cars, even then.