I think many serious drivers dont want a Gt car thatsd too "fast" and "isolated" to enjoy on road, yet too soft to hack it on track. What we want is cars engaging to drive at all speeds, its all about experince, and at the same time cars hard core enough to play a whole season ontrack. Remmebr when ferrari invented the template with the 250 SWB, nowadays such a car is found at porche its called the Gt3 or Gt4. Heres a new slogan "Ferrari, serious drivers apply elsewhere", unless you can figuratively blow someone to maybe be considered for a Le car. Better to just buy a Mcalren, Hurucan performante, Gt3 or wait is that a new Cf tubbed aston coming.
True. I think it’s also brand management. I remember reading some time ago, maybe in a FCA newsletter, that 80% of U.S. Ferrari owners are aged 50 or older. Maybe, Ferrari wants to better distribute ownership over a more even mix of “younger”, middle-aged, and older enthusiasts? Makes sense on a lot of levels.
I race a Radical SR3 RSX in the North American Masters Series as well as SCCA events. I’ve also tracked nearly every street car I’ve ever owned. This includes a 1997 Porsche 993TT which I regularly used for DE’s from 2000-2004. As far as I’m concerned, every street legal sports car is compromised for track use, including the non-Ferraris you hold in high regard. They are also quite expensive to use regularly on track compared to a purpose-built, truly lightweight (say 1000-1600 lb) race car. But that takes nothing away from their amazing capabilities and fun on the street. I’d hardly want to use a “street legal” Radical RXC on the road.
I agree, pure track and pure street cars are different animals. However the radical hardley inexpensive to operate on track. Dont think a 993 turbo is any type of track type car, its a softish 90's powerful street car. Its is though engaging on street in way modern ferraris sadly lack. A cayman GT4 can happily play both places, so can a Gt3, at a high daily cost. The simple fact is in the 2000's there are very few places on earth where you can approch the max ability of a modern exotic or near exotic on street. Therefore a car thats only really alive/engaing above 9/10ths is sort of pointless and actualy less fun than a "lesser car" If that same exotic cant play a full day on track its near pointless. Between racing and street driving lays the trackday and De event. these have exploded in popularity because the track is where fast cars go to play these days, thats why we have Gt3s performantes and such. Ferrari is like a dog that dont hunt, too anodyne at street attainable speeds and for various reasons pretty much not seen on track. The 2000s and the avialable construction tech enables smart manufactuers to offer light powerful and engaing to drive cars, for street and on track. Think about the Maclaren F1. You think there is no way a modern company cant offer a Cf tubbed 550-650 hp Na or minimal turbo lag car for 3-400k. CF chassis tech not that big a deal now, nor is the power of a motor. The problem arises in trying to make a car primarily to serve the Gt car with racing pedigree cliental, instead of also offering simply a great driving car. I get the Gt car thing, its what 85% of the clients really want and can handle, its what they will purchase provided its easy to drive has more power than the other guys car and great paper numbers, other than great light weight because thats not a paper spec. Whats called for is comfort, deviated stiching lots of options electric seats etc, which is then heavy necessitating Ps, and of course we need an At for traffic where the car will live, but thats ok becaise we'll say its race etch and "faster" But to me an "authentic" sportscar brand also makes cars that are simply great to drive on road at all speeds, full of feedback and experince, raw cars with a sense of occasion every time you awaken it, cars thta actulay need to be driven, and reward the senses when they are. And beacuse its the 21st century and sppeed on road is antisocial/criminal cars that are also great at 10/10ths on track. Today porche at least makes two such cars, lambo apparetly does with the performante. Maybe the speciale was such a car, hard to say because I probbaly have more fingers than peopel who took their speciale to the track and ran it hard, let alone on the street. Ferrari has imo decended into becoming rare luxury handbags for men. Thats partlky because of how they retail the product and its partly its the resultant product exceution. As it is ferrari has been stuck at 8k units for a long time and any shortage is artificial, we know they can and would love to make 10K units with current facilities, the real demand is simply not there, somehtign is worng.. Meanwhile if we add up lambo Mclaren and top end porche sales, ie exotic cars in the 200-400k range ferrari which used to own this market is probbaly not even 50% of units, and argualbly the competion is better in a number of categories. Better BTW does not mean "faster" however thats measured. I can say that where I spend over 50% of my track days, probbaly half the people are budget unlimited. There are one or two 458 Challenge cars thaT hardley ever run. Out on track if its a street based car odds are its a porche, if its a street car odds are its a Gt3 or some sort of cayman, follwed by vettes and loti. These are people who would just as soon write a 500k instead of a 300k check. Maybe ferrari is still somewhere in F1, a series that has minimal if any road car relevance. Elsewhere down to the club level ferrari is simply not a player, even though some can easily afford it. From what I see at ferrari club road events, its a parade of cars, and I doubt 90% have been over 120 mph or driven hard besides as quick squirt of the accelerator. Its hard to take a company seriously when their goal is to charge 2k for pLastic sheilds, A company that makes hardley any hard core drivers cars, and the few they allegedly do wont really be driven because of mileage and depreciation. The whole thing is upside down, wrong priorities for sustaining core brand values, and thats why they are getting their comupence. Maybe it took 20 years for the arrogance to bite them, but now the floodgates of competition are open. Those floodgates are open because of who(not age) ferrari values as customers to the exclusion of others, because of how ferrari treated real/existing customers/owners, and because of how they limited their product offering to customers. To paraphrase melody lee at cadillac "ferrari is a branding company that happens to make cars" and therein lay the problem for any real enthusiast. Maybe sergio will be good, he wants to sell cars, not create a larger brand snobbery department. Maybe if they re-discover the driver niche as profitable they will make some great drivers cars again. They still have motors, and styling shouldnt be too hard to do.
This has also been my experience and observation. When attending my dealer events, the gatherings are full of Ferrari enthusiasts. They are established and classy individuals, some younger and some older. The notion that today’s buyers don’t have deep regard for the brand is ridiculous. As for the GTO selection process, I’m sure they will allocate based on a variety of criteria, some being age and longevity of past and potential ownership.
Has anyone tracked the number of days or miles any of the forum members are running on track with their 458S or 488? I fully intend to accelerate the depreciation on mine as it will live at COTA/MSRC when I'm not running with PCA. Cars are therapy, I buy them to use fully knowing I'm giving away that money. Cheaper than many other hobbies.
I have several accomplished racing buddies who speak very highly of the 488’s track prowess. A few have even said that it’s the best street car that they’ve ever driven on track, and these folks have some incredible machinery in their collections. Not to mention years of racing experience on both storied North American and European circuits. I find my 2015-18 Ferraris to be genuinely more fun on the street than any of my previous sports cars. I can only imagine how great the 488 VS will be.
McLaren isn't better, remember the 675LT coupe/spider debacle. A very bad game for such a young company.
I have purchased all 4 brands (Fcars, Lcars, Pcars and Mcars) and drive them hard primarily "in the bush" and on mountain passes in Europe and I must say each brand has its merits. Does this mean I don't appreciate the capabilities of the car or need a "track weapon" - no as I don't care for the track - so I don't judge the whole brand because its not present on a tracks. McLaren have learnt how to "bend over" a customer on options and have taken it to a level even Ferrari wouldn't go to. Simple solution, dont get hooked on all the CF and other stuff - its personal choice items. The 488VS has a lot to prove and I am sure it will do just fine. And I cant wait for mine as it will be the ultimate "bush" and mountain pass machine - perfect for my use and I am sure many in Europe and the US too.
Could be possible the name Competizione, or Competizione GT, becouse Ferrari won again this weekend the world championship in FIA WEC!
Would love this, but, having that name it would need to respect very ambitious expectations and set a new naming tradition for Ferrari, sort of gt2 moniker by porsche, even more powerful as a name. I really hope for GTE stradale if not GTO. Chances are minimum, but not null.
I'm with you. GTE Stradale sounds logically and ok, but, if I'm honest, Competizione would I like more, sounds more impressive to me. Competizione Stradale would end in CS, and this abbreviation should not be used anymore.
Yeah, however, Competizione is not very likely cause it is generally associated to race cars, as a GTC, granturismo competizione. This name is really a mistery, they can go completely in another direction, but in the end the performance will make honor to the name whatever it will be
Lambo is neither fish nor fowl. and all the L owners i know (at least the ones which have below 2 sportscars) are not gearheads - they are blingbling. i have the experience that 99outof100 who love driving on the edge never buys and L - but yeah which one... an Aventador, a regular Huracan... no. Engine and the looks are great. but driving them... a E36M3 hid more fun in its chassis. hopefully it will change with the Performante. didn´t driven it until now. soon the GT2RS tests will arrive. last weekend were press days in Portugal. for me the GT2RS is next to the Performante the direct competition of the 488VS. but i couldn´t get one. after them - we wait for the 7xxLT from McL - for this one i´ll look close. hopefully they enhance quality whise. but i guess it will be 2020... i´m one of the guys who have to count the money spent on track. 2k€ for a day is money - if you multiply it with 20 a year. if it comes down to driving and the connection between man and the machine. you have to go british. i would go each time with my 620R Caterham or with the 235hp 2.0l N/A one. i would buy an Radical, Arial, Ultima, BAC, maybe again a GT3 Cup. or i maybe i would even prefer my old fully track ready E46M3 (suspension, brakes, seats, everything out - this things costs you 20k+10k in parts) for all those thrills and feels a first budget of 80k is enough. if i spend 300k+ i do search more. i do search quality, service and a working dealer and parts network (McL does not have it at the moment if i think back on my 570s days) i do search perfection (my 991GT3RS is the embodiment of perfection) i do search exclusivity, stunning looks and somehow presence/attendance (the ACR Extreme will do its job) i do search a buying experience. (F are masters in this. pics during production. clear statements about yes/no/price. tailor-made process) what i really want is all in one. i do search goose bumps and minutes which last a life long (and this i got a couple of years ago buying and smashing around my first F430) it was beautiful, the perfect steering and chassis feel, the engine / the F136 doesnt mater if E or F - the noise and response of it - to die for. each day / each drive i really really enjoyed. it like comparing a Ducati with a japanese sportsbike - it isn´t the same. Porsche GT department is doing their job best currently - if it is about driving and owning pleasure. but they are still missing the magic and the perfect order procedere. i never got those feelings again. and i hope i will get it - as soon i can see the 488VS in March. and a couple of month later as soon getting it. hopefully the 488VS will be LESS PERFECT for the road. the gearbox will be to rude (as long this can even happen based on the double clutch). the chassis and suspension have to be to stiff in every setting (because springs you can´t modify with a button). its way to loud inside. and hell - as long it is a turbo - let it breath free in each rpm range - its fun to dance on the minefield. it have to be a car which is an event to drive. Emotion is often based on imperfection. the more you try to do everything well - the more you will loose the peaks in specific areas. for the journalists: i do hope that F is not making the same error as a lot of sportscar producers are doing all the time: wheel alignment. it should not be for the sissy road drivers. it have to be for the track and the alps. i prefer to read a bit nervous on ruttings instead of: the car has an unclear balance and is understeering af. this thread will be fun till Geneva.
! hopefully it will be within this direction. for me the Challenge Stradale fits best to the raw 360. Scuderia for the 430 - with that necessary gearbox update compared with the regulare F430 F1 - also very suitable. Speciale - it is. based on the whole upgrade in quality and usability the 458 got - and this engine. it is special. but if you have asked me before - no idea. how the name finding was back in Scuderia or Speciale days? all the heritage names seems to get the newer V12 models: GTO, Berlinetta, Tdf, Lusso maybe there is coming something completley new again - as the 3 times before at the V8 LE´s. Please correct me if wrong - i´m still not that good in the Ferrari history. [edit: four examples of the 250 GT Coupé Speciale were made, on the type 513 chassis...]
I really don't see them calling it "Competizione". It will be a road going sports car (albeit a very intense one) not a race car. I don't imagine them calling it "Stadale" either, because it has been used fairly recently. As for "GTO", I would love it, but I can't imagine it will happen. As much as I love my 488 GTB, and as much as I am excited about this next incarnation, let's be honest, the cars that bear that moniker are in a different stratosphere within the Ferrari lineage. My guess is that it will be called something wholly new.
