Hybrid V-12's are coming

There isn't any doubt that Ferrari is perfectly capable technically of producing a new V12 aspirated great engine with 900 cv or more in order to equip the future model which will be the substituting the 812. At first sight isn't understandable why they've decided to go hybrid unless there are other very relevant aspects involved, like for instance the C02 emission impositions which can't be attained with a single ICE, or some other technical reasons related with the difficulty of accommodating a bigger and heavier engine.

 

To get ever more power out of the V12 you either have to keep increasing capacity or increase compression ratio. The latter screws emissions and the former concentrates the added weight in the already heaviest part of the car. To keep pace with the V12 product line they will resort to hybrid IMV. They have already gone turbo with the V8, which is a way of gaining added power at a lower compression. It may be that they can ‘afford’ extra emissions for the V12 if they reduce in other areas of the range but given that the 812’s replacement will last until around 2030 with the expected two variants, it would be a massive risk for Ferrari not to incorporate some form of battery/hybrid planning in that platform.

 

No, I am not saying that. Ferrari is the worldwide expert in N/A, multi-cylinder, high revving, performance engines. What I am saying is that any technology that supports and compliments a great N/A engine, without altering its character, should be welcome. So, why not continue evolving the V12 and add another helping element? BTW an all new V12 will be needed in the future as the F140 is at its limit in terms of capacity.

 

No, it shouldn't necessarily be "welcomed."
The current V12 from Ferrari doesn't need "help."
What needs "help" are the minds of ridiculous people who are like slaves marching headlong into an unnecessary future to achieve something they don't need, can't use, and destroy a beautiful thing in the process.
Like a self-fulfilling prophecy, keep saying it enough and it creates its own reality....perception is reality.

Hey Ferrari, if any of you at the Factory read these forums to get the "pulse" of your clients please read this:
99% of your drivers are incapable of driving a car with >1000hp effectively, and even if they have the skills they aren't sane to test those limits on the street. Period. They belong in jail in most of the World for endangering the lives of other people/kids going about their daily lives on the roads if they are pushing limits on cars that have 1000hp, 0-62mph times of 2 seconds, and go 225 mph, etc.

YOU ARE THE WORLD SUPERCAR LEADER.....now LEAD.

Leading doesn't mean being the head of the slaves, the first lemming in the group...stand up and lead.
Tell the World that the Emperors New Clothes aren't clothes...he is naked.
Develop you beautiful NA V12 a little further, add in a little extra horsepower if you like, say...800-900hp. Then tell the World, "Ferrari has decided to concentrate on other aspects of the driving experience than just foolish horsepower wars on paper."
Use your brilliant innovative engineers to keep perfecting that engine to reduce its weight, its emissions, extend fuel range as much as humanly possible..but stay true to your roots, your heritage of the World's most beautiful and pure V12 engine.
Have your marketing people, if you have any I can't tell, inform the World that your customers by driving your cars perhaps pollute the environment by < .000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% with a NA engine vs. some electric crap.
You could even work out the math and tell the World that one ranch in Florida of perfectly natural cows farting does more harm than your V12s.
Work the chassis more, add in CF, make it more rigid, make it lighter.
Make the interior even more about leather saturated surfaces, not apple carplay children toys.
Get rid of swoops, holes, wings, fins, etc on your design...make the modern embodiment of the 275 GTB, the 250SWB ( or whatever you feel is a natural progression of those gorgeous lines).
Take notice of the most expensive and most desirable cars you have ever produced...you notice they are among the slowest?
Tell the EU to "stuff it!" Tell them your clients are wealthy and they will pay the fines the liberal EU idiots impose...but Ferrari will not bow down and change your mission to build something truly unique, truly special...something for the ages comes from the ages. Traditions matter.
Let the YouTube children run off and brag about their 0-62 times, and stupid top speeds that you can only test on a runway anyway...let them buy their Mclarens, etc...you don't need these customers anyway.
You build cars for wealthy Men, confident Men (sorry ladies, no disrespect, but your aren't their target demographic mostly).
You will sell every car you make, you always have, you always will.
Now show the confidence to do all that.
You're "welcome."

 

As of today I am a official fan of „italiafan“. I could not have said it better!

and the analogy: „Have your marketing people, if you have any I can't tell, inform the World that your customers by driving your cars perhaps pollute the environment by < .000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% with a NA engine vs. some electric crap. You could even work out the math and tell the World that one ranch in Florida of perfectly natural cows farting does more harm than your V12s„....... is eye watering LMAO!

 

No need. Really, don't trouble yourself.

You have just made precisely the point that @4th_gear and I made earlier.

Enjoy arguing with yourself

 

Good points.
A agree that if the move to hybrid is the way to keep the ICE alive for longer, then that's a good thing. It would not surprise me to see the 2040 date being discussed for banning pure ICE being brought forward, or other environmental regulations driving the pure ICE to extinction before then.

As for the generational thing, the difficulty with the analogy with watches etc is that in the world today a handmade handmade with an intricate mechanism is a signal that it is costly (because it was labour intensive) and therefore deemed a luxury good even though it performs similarly to a $20 digital watch. . Not clear hand assembly or having a complex V12 works similarly with the new generation because a electric supercar by the same brand is still "cool". Only time will tell, but I see your point.

 

Well, that's just one opinion and it would be rather presumptuous to regard it a universal truth.
Ferrari has always been about performance and innovation. The old cars you 've mentioned were at the top of the performance hierarchy in their time and they are sought after because they were winning races and also because so few of them survive. What you are proposing is against Ferrari's history and ethos. Ferrari is not about beauty (Enzo said that a winning car becomes a beautiful car), nor about leather chairs. It's about engine power and performance, innovative solutions and driving excitement. By the way the 250 GTO was full of holes in its body... Lastly, no one said that the N/A V12 is dying, so you don't need to worry about that.

Cheers

 

No, not quite. You seem to have missed the point about the mandatory capacity reduction which enabled the transition to the V10. Also the fact that the 412T was mainly plagued by reliability, not performance issues. Hence Schumacher's amazement at the car's power delivery and handling.

 

Also the precious metals and stones I 'd say.

 

Agreed on opinions.
We are not talking about race cars, but street V12 technology..hence my whole point about idiotic horsepower wars on the street; and not be a slavish sucker to those wars. Be different, build a new path, lead.
The older cars are also sought after for their beauty, their simplicity, there driving experience. (I am of course fully aware of their collectability based upon art and rarity.)
Ferraris absolutely are about beauty..beautiful design, beautiful sound, beautiful smell, beautiful driving experience...the true joy and pride of owning and motoring..it doesn't come any better.
I'm not really too concerned about quotes from Enzo and I suspect very few are other than for the historical interest of the man.
Notice how I didn't mention the GTO (), I personally feel the 275GTB and 250SWB are prettier cars.
Yes...you stick batteries and electrics with the V12 and a good portion of it just "died," for me anyway.

 

My personal scepticism about all future Ferraris V12 being hybrid derives uniquely from one unanswered question which has plagued my mind since Sergio Marchionne made the announcement - Ferrari has decided to go hybrid because that’s the current fashion or was it inevitable? Independently of what’s the answer to that question the irreversible fact is that all future V12 Ferraris are going to be hybrid and that’s what we will have to live with.

For a moment I decided to put aside my preconception about an hybrid Ferrari trying to look at the subject as objectively as possible. Several years ago while talking with a very weathered racing driver about the LaFerrari driving experience, I never forget what he said to me with excitement in his eyes - “It was an unique driving experience and when I pressed the accelerator to the bottom on a straight for the first time, I had the clear sensation that the back wheels and the axle were going to come off and overtake the front wheels”. These words coming from someone who races and loves Ferraris and has driven some of the most emblematic cars in the planet made me think that this hybrid “prejudice” I have in me may be is a complete nonsense. Since the LaFerrari is the only reference we have at the moment for evaluating what could be a future Ferrari hybrid V12, I leave you a compilation of what was written by some of the world's most renown motor journalists after they drive the car.


“That means instant throttle response, razored responses and the most natural-feeling hybrid in existence. Find a decent empty stretch of road though, and you can warp the weft of spacetime with the LaFerrari’s acceleration. It handles fabulously, too – with the delicacy you expect of a Ferrari, but the punch of the Space Shuttle. Really though, it’s not a hybrid – it’s a V12 megacar with electric nitrous”

“However fast and furious and noisy and exciting to drive you might imagine LaFerrari to be, double it, add 20 and you might, just maybe, get somewhere close. And the throttle response, the first time I go anywhere near the loud pedal is just outrageous; the car explodes down the back straight even on half throttle in fourth gear”

“And that’s what you get when you integrate electric power with a thumping great V12. At low revs the electricity provides the torque, and provides it instantly, and from there on up – at about 3000rpm – the V12 takes over. Yet the transformation is so smooth you are never actually aware that it takes place. Instead, it feels like the car is powered by a 10-litre V12 that somehow has massive low rev response at the same time”

“And to begin with, at least, it’s the immediacy of its response to the throttle that pretty much defines what LaFerrari feels like on the move. The torque appears to arrive from the moment you think about opening the accelerator, not when you physically press the pedal, and to begin with that takes quite some getting used to”

“The acceleration, and the noise, and the violence, it all just keeps on coming at you, stronger and louder with every extra revolution of the crankshaft until the limiter intrudes at an ear-splitting 9250rpm. The first time I run it right up to the limiter in third, the hairs on the back of my neck sit bolt upright, and it’s all I can do not to start screaming uncontrollably for no apparent reason”.

“And yet, in their way, the gearchange, the brakes, the steering, the turn in, the handling balance and the ride… they are all every bit as incredible as the engine – sorry the power source – and the acceleration it can produce”

“Where the real magic happens is in the way the electric motor makes its contribution. The ultimate silent partner, it augments the V12’s performance, response and delivery without ever making its presence felt. Ferrari has used the electric motor as a means of sharpening the powertrain’s response and providing torque-fill in the lower and mid range of its torque curve, which then allows the petrol engine’s tune to be optimsed for top-end fireworks”

“It’s equally impressive on track. I’ve been to Fiorano on numerous occasions, but never has it felt so small. LaFerrari literally devours the place, romping down the straights and chomping through the corners like nothing I’ve ever driven here. Everything is so immediate, intense and explosive, yet just as on the road LaFerrari feels totally intuitive and approachable”

“Quite how LaFerrari manages to deploy its heroic performance with such control, yet make the driving experience so approachable, exploitable and totally engaging is something of a miracle. As is the seamless way in which the powertrain, chassis and aerodynamics have been integrated”

 

^^^ Thanks for taking time to post this

I love the quote "The torque appears to arrive from the moment you think about opening the accelerator, not when you physically press the pedal, and to begin with that takes quite some getting used to”

 

You seem to be repeating yourself. Worth getting checked out.

Power is not relevant to the discussion. FWIW, the '95 V12 and the '96 V10 and had the same 3L capacity and, on an end of season basis, the '96 V10 had approx 50hp more than the '95 V12. There's nothing sacrosanct about V12 when comes to performance.

So, if they could do more with less AND meet the future regulations for road cars, it would definitely be an option.

 

I won't descend into personal insults, unlike you.

Of course power is relevant. The '95 engine was an intermittent development. The successor was bound to be better. Still, not as good as a V12 would have been if it didn't have the fuel limitations. What Schumacher had said is in writing.

Anyway, since you seem to be focusing on road cars I 'd like to see some evidence of the impending death of the N/A V12.

 

Thanks Mario for taking the time to put that together.

I am a little bit puzzled a those who are on the side of no hybrid because its electric. I understand this comes from the impulse to hold on to something good. We don't want it to change. But, apologies for being a little philosophical, change is always happening. As they say, its the only constant.

I wonder what about all the other non-purist things that have changed over the years with Ferrari? So much of these cars is now governed by computers... even "our" glorious V12. And then we have the whole manual v paddles discussion. Are these debates over and accepted? Electronic traction and stability control, brake force distribution, by wire throttle and control over all sorts of things, paddles, all OK? Even now, 4 wheel and electric steering. I think at each new innovation we have the chorus of "they are ruining the magic formula!" So, have we just moved on to being upset over hybrid?

I think we are lucky to be around for this era of incredible cars!

I think if you like what they did on the F12 but don't like that the 812 has electric steering, then you can have an F12. If you say you need a stick shift, then there are 430s, 360s, 355s etc out there. And if you want carbs you might have to dig a little deeper, but they are out there also.

Yes, the horsepower wars are a bit silly, but that is how cars sell. They need to capture your imagination to sell and the power is a part of it. You could say the styling really shouldn't matter and it should be all about performance and nothing else. If thats how you feel, there are cars that do that.

But I think Ferrari has always managed to do it all. I also think Mr. Ferrari's quote about cars becoming beautiful once they win pertained to race cars. However, we all know he didn't really prioritize street cars, they were a means to an end, to finance his racing efforts. However, he was fortunate being surrounded by talented artisans who could not just build a car body, but make it beautiful as well. I'm sure he understood a beautiful car body is part of the equation. Anyway, I'm pretty sure when asked whats the best one, Mr. Ferrari would say something like "the next one". And that means they keep looking to the future.

I don't think the future is simply a blind march to electric. In the case of Ferrari, I think they are implementing a plan that gets them greater profits and greater sales and likely subjects them to stricter emissions regulations. So if that means they need to use this hybrid stuff to keep the NA V12 in the game, I am OK with that, at least in theory.

We will see what they do and then we can judge.

In the mean time, I'm thankful and happy they are making these incredible machines that still inspire and capture our imaginations.

 

Since we are often comparing the 812 against LaFerrari, I thought I should dig up actual numbers, rather than have people make assumptions. As you see, LaFerrari is not heavy compared to the 812, granted it has a CF tub... but Ferrari really should be using at least a hybrid CF/aluminium tub already and we are talking about the future replacement for the 812.

LaFerrari

(ICE) 6262 cc
(ICE) 800 CV @9000 rpm (588 kW),
(ICE) 700 Nm @6750 rpm,
electric motor output 163 CV (120 Kw)
963 CV combined
1,585 kg (kerb), 1255 kg (dry)
0.6076 CV/kg (combined CV), 0.5047 CV/kg (ICE CV only)
CO2 emissions 330 g/km​

812 Superfast

6496 cc
800 CV @ 8,500 rpm (588 kW),
718 Nm @ 7,000 rpm,
1,630 kg (kerb), 1,525 kg (dry)
0.4908 CV/kg
CO2 emissions 340 g/km
​

 

There's also something else that I think people forget... Ferraris use flatplane crank engines.

It doesn't matter than they are V8 or V12 - they all use flatplane cranks. That results in compromised low end torque deliver compared to crossplane crank engines. That fact it was REALLY apparent to me when I first drove my first Ferrari (not a California) and I did not like it. I opted not to buy the car partly because of it. I had to crank that engine past 4000 rpm to get some life into the car and it would have meant the car would be full-time in obnoxious mode if I wanted it to feel "happy". I owned a car like that in the past and it was a speeding ticket magnet. I was also more used to crossplane V8s that deliver immediate torque.

You will find other drivers also complain about this. Modern Ferrari V8 and V12 engines are designed to perform like race engines, at high revs and high speeds. You can say whatever you want about them but they are not really optimum for street use.

Hence, IMO the enhanced low-end torque performance provided by small electric motors when moving the car from rest are in fact, a PERFECT MARRIAGE for Ferrari road cars. They just have to get the batteries right.

 

To be frank it's unjust to compare a mortal 812 to the divine LaFerrari. That said, it shows a lot! BTW The 812's kerb is more than that but anyway...

 

Just pulling your leg here, but what's wrong with you americans and low RPM torque? Can't you rev an engine for effect?

 

....Phone: +39 0536 949111

 

...Canuck actually. Yes we can, but we don't want to give the game away just before we bolt from the lights.

 

Guess you just have to ask yourself if a 950HP pure NA V12 is less attractive to you than an 800 HP V12 with a separate 150 HP electric motor.

The answer likely depends if your driving that new V12 to keep or flip. If to keep then the +10 year scenario of that battery pack and high voltage electronics is not pretty or cheap by comparison. When the leap in battery design finally hits it will all be electric 4-motor vectored thrust anyway and your "instant kick" hybrid will be the worst of all worlds IMO. Do love this thread as long as it doesn't get personal.

 

Interesting article recently in the UK’s Times newspaper talking about new battery tech, just about to come on-stream. Magnesium based instead of lithium. Slightly ironic given the last poster but the key to it is solid state technology and the fact this allows 2 ions transported instead of 1, which drastically cuts recharge times and increases power/range. The solid state part is also important for safety and longevity - solid is more stable than liquid. I think it is Fisker who they quoted as first planning to use this tech. But also I heard VW group may be easily invested in this. Bit of a problem for the multi-billion dollar investment Musk has made into his gigafactory I would say.

 

This is the article - it may not be legible.
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