Countach Downdraft 1985 to 1988.5 | Page 320 | FerrariChat

Countach Downdraft 1985 to 1988.5

Discussion in 'LamborghiniChat.com' started by joe sackey, Oct 25, 2015.

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  1. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

    May 23, 2006
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    #7976 joe sackey, Jan 15, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
    Geno,

    Happy New Year.

    JLA12345 was special-ordered via Portman Lamborghini (UK) by a young London-based Middle Eastern Prince who was attending school in England at the time.

    I was privileged to see this stunning car a handful of times when it was new @ 1988 as I already owned a Countach myself at the time and several owners got together on a regular basis.

    It left quite an impression on me.

    The color was not an 'available color' for the model per se, and is definitely not one of those on the standard PPG color chart which I have (below). However, you could correctly refer to it as a Paint To Sample color, and I note that Nuova Automobili Lamborghini SpA carried this type of request out for VIP clients a few times.

    The interesting thing about the official chart I have is some colors such as PPG 2.463.012 Canna Di Fucile Metallizzato were rarely-ordered (only 2 known to me) and others such as PPG 2.463.685 Oro Sahara Metallizzato were not used at all, to my knowledge. That said, you’ll note that Bianco Perlato was not on the color chart, yet at least a dozen cars or more were ordered in that color.

    FWIW the colors on the chart are:

    PPG 2.464.022 Rosso Siviglia (Red)
    PPG 2.467.026 Nero Tenebre (Black)
    PPG 2.461.025 Bianco Polo Park (White)
    PPG 2.463.924 Blu Acapulco Metalizzato (Dark blue metallic)
    PPG 2.463.739 Blu Tahiti Metallizzato (Medium blue metallic)
    PPG 2.463.729 Argento Luna Metallizzato (Silver)
    PPG 2.463.685 Oro Sahara Metallizzato (Gold)
    PPG 2.463.012 Canna Di Fucille (Dark grey metallic)

    Meanwhile, I can only describe the color of the yellow 88.5 Downdraft as metallic yellow (I do not know what the official PPG name is, so I referred to it as 'Giallo Metallizzato'), and, as with our Bordeaux Speciale, I have not seen another Countach in this color.

    IMO, speaking from experience, a one-off color for a Miura or a Countach would command a significant premium were it to be for sale, exactly how much would depend on the car’s current condition, the desirability of the color, and the car's historical provenance.
     
  2. geno berns

    geno berns F1 Rookie

    Oct 26, 2006
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    Geno
    Thank you and Happy New Year to you and yours!

    Amazing choice of color for the time. It seems aside from this rare one off color for a VIP, I always noticed that European production cars in general from your Countaches to a Daytona, the variation of colors was a lot more varied than US production cars. It seems that the US based buyers were more conservative and would opt for your main stream colors.

    Geno
     
  3. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

    May 23, 2006
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    I agree, that's been my observation also.
     
  4. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    8,992
    Joe,
    I do not understand why -everybody?- calls the Countach 5000S Quattrovalvole the "Downdraft"-car??? As far as I know this describtion was never used by the factory or even in their homologation docs etc.!
    As I drove many, many moons ago in the late 80s a 5000S I never heared about this name nor did the owner of the car mentioned it.
    So, why not speaking about the 5000S QV? Why so "complicated"? Lets make things easy...

    Just my 2cts.
     
  5. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

    May 23, 2006
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    Walter,

    Long time, hope you are well!

    IMHO, referring to this variant as the Downdraft is easier and less “complicated” than referring to it as the ‘LP5000 QV Carburatori’ or the 'carbureted version of the LP5000QV'!

    Monikers or nicknames proliferate the classic and sports car world, making it easier for owners & enthusiasts to refer to the cars in a simple unofficial way, without using all the lengthy official model designations. This is true from Porsche to Ferrari to Lamborghini and more makes besides, and it has become more common as the years go by.

    Beetle, Pagoda, Frog Eye, Ducktail, Gullwing, Longtail, Shortnose, 4-Cam, Plexi-nose, Lightweight, the list of monikers goes on.

    Amongst the Countach variants, in recent years we have Periscopa, Lowbody, Downdraft etc.

    Downdraft is appropriate for this Countach type as it refers to the only variant of the Countach powered by Downdraft carbureted induction, an understandable reference to its most important & desirable distinguishing feature. Personally, I think the name is a pretty cool reference.

    I agree with your point about the 80s, when I purchased my first Downdraft in the latter part of that decade whilst the cars were still being built, there was no such name! But, times change, and I think Downdraft might be here to stay as I note that people were referring to the variant as the "Downdraft" long before this thread was created in 2015.
     
    Ciro Izzo likes this.
  6. raymondQV

    raymondQV F1 Rookie

    Aug 22, 2007
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    The official term of the so called Downdraft Countach is simply "Quattrovalvole" short "QV", or in case of the injected version "FI QV".
    If you take it by the meaning, also the carbureted 25th is a Downdraft engine, but nobody names them like this.

    In Europe nobody uses terms like downdraft, the LP112D is the QV engine, either with carbs or injection.
    Same for the 25th which are called Anniversary or short "Anni".
     
  7. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    Yes, exactly, in our film Valentino refers to our car as "Countach Quattrovavole", and that works just fine, but when I had my first Downdraft whilst the cars were still in production in the late 80s and we all used the moniker "QV".

    I have indeed heard people refer to the carbureted 25th as "25th Downdraft", and I have also heard some European owners & enthusiasts use the expression "Downdraft", quite often nowadays in fact.

    It appears the name Downdraft started here in the USA, and is now becoming universally used, although bear in mind it is spoken Downdraft but most often written up on forums as "DD".

    Same with the moniker "88.5", it started here in the USA, and now I see everyone including owners, enthusiasts and car dealers in Europe using it as well.

    "Anni", that's another moniker or nickname, I think that one started in Europe?

    The moral of the story is, unofficially, people will call these cars whatever they want, just to make a specific reference, and like all nicknames, once it catches on and becomes universally understood, that's what they like to use.

    That said, the official designation always remains the same.
     
  8. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    8,992
    Joe,

    well, I grew up in the Gullwing of my Dad in the later 50s, owned a Porsche 911 2.7RS in the late 70s (Touring-version) and those names were then directly adopted (300SL) and/or given by the factory (911RS). The name Beatle was used not long after the car was imported into the US in the very early 50s...and was simply THE name for the car worldwide (and until now for the modern version). Even the name Daytona for the Ferrari was quickly more or less "adopted" by the factory but mainly by the dealers and owners in that (!) 70s-period!

    The change of name for as the "Downdraft" for the Quattroporte 5000S QV came only recently and is not used by the majority of the enthusiasts for this -and other- types. In EU nobody speaks about this car as a "Downdraft", "DD". Same with this moniker "88.5" etc, etc...

    In our IT-world it became quite normal to find monikers for everything. So I wait for the moniker for Jesus Christ as simply as JC or Coca Cola as CC, CC-L or CC-C.
     
  9. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    Here is an International auction company (RM) referring to a car they are selling as a "Downdraft" @ 8 years ago:

    https://www.rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/MO09/Sports---Classics-of-Monterey/lots/r259-1987-lamborghini-countach-5000-quattrovalvole-downdraft/199352

    Here are other well-known entities in the trade using the "Downdraft" name a number of years ago:

    http://www.fantasyjunction.com/cars/1096-Lamborghini-Countach 5000 QV Euro Spe-5.0 Litre 12-Cylinder

    http://www.themotoringenthusiast.com/cars/countach-qv-dd

    Also, here is a European dealer you know using the "88.5" name @ 4-5 years ago:

    https://www.dkeng.co.uk/ferrari-sales/326/Prestige_Cars/Lamborghini_Countach_5000_QV_885.html

    Bear in mind that just because you havent heard it doesn't mean it isn't being used, I have European clients who refer to the car as Downdraft, as with Periscopa and Lowbody.
     
  10. mt_jt

    mt_jt Formula Junior

    May 9, 2012
    602
    Australia
    “Powerdome”...ha, ha!
    Now that’s...American!
     
  11. P300V8

    P300V8 Formula 3

    Mar 8, 2010
    1,645
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    I believe the various factory names for the QV were LP500 4V, Countach 4V and Tipo 4V L507 with no distinction between carburetor or fuel injection versions at this level.
     
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  12. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    8,992
    Joe,
    well, for me this car will always be a 5000S QV. I`m an old fashioned guy with modern taste!
     
  13. jb21

    jb21 Karting

    Apr 28, 2015
    144
    On colours, I don't have access to factory production records but in terms of how frequently they come up for sale at auction, I know what the story has been over the last few years (back to 2010/11) and I would think the data tells a story (Source: Gazzi and Orsi Classic Car Auction Yearbooks).

    Forgive me if I am out by one or two cars (eyesight and concentration)

    Of the 115 odd Countach (all variants) offered at auction since 2010/11 they have been

    Red 40%, Black 22%, White 21%, Blue 8%, Yellow 5%. Orange, Grey, Silver, Copper, Green were all approx 1%.

    Of the 24 QVs (19 FI QV, 5 QV)

    9 were white, 8 were black, 6 were red and 1 was yellow. No other colours have been offered at auctions covered by the book.

    On colour and any premium, Joe is, of course, right; there are many factors to be taken into account.

    But there was a blue Anni that sold at Artcurial last Feb at $354k with 34k kms. That was around 15% over the average for an Anni at auction last year, with higher than average kms. Of course, no allowance for condition here and one piece of data may not mean much...but there it is.
     
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  14. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

    May 23, 2006
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    Actually, I first noticed the expression @ 3 years ago as used to describe a very English car https://notoriousluxury.com/2015/06/20/retrospect-1986-1989-aston-martin-v8-vantage-volante/ the Aston Martin Vantage

    That's true as far as the car's official name is concerned, but don’t forget that the Countach variant built @ Sant Agata with the 6 Weber (44 DCNF) vertical twin-barrel carburetors received official distinction by Nuova Automobili Lamborghini SpA in the form of separate parts book material and accompanying numbers, and a separate owner’s manual. The reference to Carburatore and Inezione separately by the factory to make the distinction between the variants is well-established.

    Walter, I appreciate & respect your preference and you are certainly entitled to it, in the same way that in the free world owners & enthusiasts didn't need factory permission to start referring to certain variants as Persicopa, Lowbody, or Downdraft. You guys make the point for the coining and existence of these monikers, so far on this page alone I have seen five (5) different suggested official names for the car that is the thread's variant, no wonder a simple one-word description works so well. Downdraft - no further explanation needed.
     
  15. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    Fantastic post John, as always!

    Thank you for taking the time to compile this, and I dare say some of the the images I have of the cars in the factory @ the point of production supports this study.

    Speaking of data, I would love to see how many cars actually left the factory with wings on.

    It is my theory that there are wings on @ 10% more cars than were delivered with them.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  16. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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  17. P300V8

    P300V8 Formula 3

    Mar 8, 2010
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    Then simply use double sided automotive tape!
     
    joe sackey likes this.
  18. No telling how many wings were added. It was the rage then, however I think a fair amount of wings since have been removed because of the bubbling/moisture issues + some wanting the wingless look. Just a guess, but the number could be less than factory now.
     
  19. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    That's the plan.

    True, it could be.

    My theory is just that, a theory. That said, I remember some who bought new Countachs and the subsequently asked the delivering dealer to supply and fit a wing after the car was delivered, and I recall a lot cars arriving from the factory wingless - as supported by images. I've also seen many people source and fit wings over the past 25 years, and as such, I'm aware of a significant number of cars with wings that were originally supplied wingless. Even accounting for wings that have been removed, and I agree a significant number have, my theory, based on observation over many years, is that we may be ahead on wings.

    Anyway, per it would be fun to see the original data of wing-supplied cars, but as the unit wasn't homologated, the factory did not record that data, I don't think. I hope I'm wrong.
     
  20. mikael82

    mikael82 Formula Junior

    Nov 18, 2007
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    Hey! Who's got HLA12148 ?
    Waranty/service book have just pop up in Facebook.
     
  21. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    Besides the suggested official names for the Downdraft as posted on this page (Countach 5000S Quattrovalvole, 5000S QV, Quattrovalvole, QV, Quattroporte 5000S QV, LP500 4V, Countach 4V, Tipo 4V L507), perhaps there is room for one more, this one by the factory itself:

    “Countach 5000 4 Valvole”

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  22. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    #7997 joe sackey, Jan 19, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
    Thanks for sharing this.

    Is there a link?

    I don't have anything on this car, perhaps others do.

    Books, manuals and all the associated literature are becoming quite important to have for these cars, I think I went a bit overboard in assembling some missing pieces:

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/144517568/
     
  23. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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  24. judealexander

    judealexander Karting

    Aug 4, 2006
    76
    Joe, are you aware of any non-Downdraft Countach in Canna di Fucille?
     
  25. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    Small wing by comparison on JLA12307, a true hero car, I hope the French-connection posts when this much-enjoyed Countach
    passes 200,000 kms.

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