MCLAREN 720S OR 488

So Ferrari compells you to purchase an undesirable car so you can then buy the one you really want.And that is acceptable?

 

That is for another discussion but it seems some don't have an issue. It didn't work for me though. I'll just get a 750LT instead.

 

i highly doubt that. the 488gtb is slower then the 675lt despit having the same power.
The f12 was badly slower then the 650s. The 812 superfast is no contest for the 720s. Heck costumors cars of ferrari (mine included) did just not performe as the pres cars did

 

Can’t imagine the pissa beating Performante.

 

Which dealer gave you the Lusso route in order to buy a Pista? Did you have any new Ferrari purchases from them lately as well?

 

With a simple tune and no max HP/TQ increase, a 488 GTB will match a Performante.... 488 engine is tuned for Turbos to kick in with little/moderate boost in the first 6 gears (progressively increasing as you move up). It never gives full boost until 7th gear, which you hardly ever use in racing/performance driving. Tune it to get full boost throughout all the gears at very low RPM, like any McLaren, and it will fly with no increase in Max HP/TQ.

Boost is intentionally reduced to give it the NA "feel", so a Pista would not only have more HP/TQ, but Ferrari will ease up slightly on this mapping as well.

 

Nope many people hate the hollow eyes on the 720, outside of that I like the look of the car.

 

I would rather not say which dealer but I am sure you can figure it out by my location. I bought 4 cars from them in the last 5 years, almost bought another a few months ago but didn't pull the trigger. In my view I am not a big deal to them but perhaps they feel otherwise and I fit the "profile" to get allocation. Certain, age, net worth, disease for buying cars, etc..

 

Perhaps but just as many or more love it. I certainly fall in that category. To each their own.

 

Stock for stock Performante eats it. You cant compare them after remapping the ecu's. You may as well suggest the Perf gets twin turbos then. Makes no sense. Stock to stock.

If Ferrari wanted to they could have squeezed out a lot more power from the 488 but I believe they tune their cars to be good enough and be reliable to minimize warranty issues. Performance is not the number 1 factor - money is. Press cars of course are another story....

 

Non comparable at all.

 

Was offered Pissa also if I buy crap cars. Completely offended by the whole lie and proposition.

 

I'll believe that when I see it. Looking forward to some comparative times and results between these 4. It may not draw the same attention of the others but that 2rs is going to be very hard to beat off the line and around a circuit - their vtg turbos and brakes are leading edge imho.

 

Actually McLaren staff work at Ricardo to build engines so this is no longer true. And the 720 engine is very different from the original nissan engine. They build their own engine off site, thats all.

 

Why compare two front-mid engine NA cars to two mid-engine force induction cars to make your point? They are not comparable in any aspect IMO.

 

This is a very valid point. Ferrari definitely only tunes their cars to a limit that would not impair reliability. They still sell as many 488s as they can produce and their clientele is fiercely loyal to the brand. The true performance capabilities are revealed when they provide test cars to magazines. Those cars perform at a much higher level than stock sold to customers.

 

true but on the ohter hand the 2 front eninge cars are about 80hp more than its rival i quoted (at least on paper) and my qout was adressed to the poster witch posted some time back he expect the 812 to be faster than the 720s, witch per se on the dragetime livestream lost badly... as i expected. my former F12 had problems to hang on highspeed runs with a 991.1 turbo s (speed range 124mph to 184+mph unrestricted highway).
completly legit is the compairo 488gtb vs 675lt, and the outcome is known.
My point at the end is Ferrari builts beautifull cars, but performance wise mclaren is no joke and porbably the benchmark on strightline speed to the ones who are interested in that topic.

 

This gets sooooo boring. Ferrari customer cars (and I’ve had many) just don’t feel down on where I expect the power to be, against the other cars I’ve owned and where their press tests show - including McLaren and Porsche. The 488 matches the LT - I know from driving against drivers with known-to-me ability - except the LT has a sharper front end and very slight extra pace - very slight. The 812 will certainly be slower than the 720, mainly due to its weight. Again, the press tests already show this.

As for buying a Lusso, the conversation feels different in the UK market, but if the purchase of other cars helps Ferrari work out who is committed and who is not, I’m all for it. I tell you what annoys ALL the Ferrari owners I know, it’s when they are told they are not high enough on the list, only to see the best cars being flipped for a profit a month after the early cars arrive. If buying a Lusso, or being part of the challenge series or some other criteria exists, I’m all for it. The best cars should go to the best customers. Anything else is bad for good customers and stupid business.

To say Ferrari can’t compete smacks of being a loaded comment - maybe some cars are faster, some are slower, we don’t eulogise over a few tenths, but most do over a car that makes you feel fantastic on the limit, and one we like the look of. For some that’s a 720, (and who am I to disagree. It’s a mega car) for more that’s a 488 (more because more buy the 488, you can say they don’t know what they’re doing but that is a lazy assumption on your part IMV). And that includes me. You can tell me my preference is not yours, but you can’t insult me by saying that I don’t know what I’m buying. I’ve done a lot of research, I like Ferrari best usually and when I part with a 6-figure sum for a car I make sure I buy what I want. I wish people would quit with the emphatic “a is great, b is toast” nonsense - pollutes a good forum and just sounds, well, childish.

 

Motor Trend Latest issue -" Ferrari has admitted to carefully optimizing cars to ensure they perform at their absolute best in media tests. That's not cheating , they say, just ...optimizing. And if one senior development engineer at a rival automaker is right, Ferrari is very good at it. He says, the Ferrari 488 GTB his company bought retail to use as a benchmark vehicle feels nowhere near as good in terms of engine performance and chassis composure as the press cars he's driven. So much so that he's seriously considering dropping the Ferrari from the competitive set."

 

The 488 and the 675 are very close, to the point of the statistical error, even though the Macca is a a lot lighter : http://www.zeperfs.com/en/duel5623-5661.htm
The 812 is some 300 kilos heavier than the 720, yet they are pretty close.
Also, in my experience, customer Ferraris match the officially claimed numbers. Okay, not always, but this happens all across the industry.

 

I believe Ferrari can do much better performance wise but I also believe "most" buyers aren't so concerned about optimal performance as their cars will not make it past the country club. Ferrari knows this - heck most people barely drive them at all. I agree with the rest of your points.

 

Ridiculous ... the Lusso/Pista combo! I wonder when people sell their Pista if they will make the Lusso a package deal?

 

You have a link to the article ?

 

As a buyer of all brands (Lcars, Pcars, Mac and Fcars), I enjoy them all. However "favored status" goes to Ferrari every-time. Not due to performance, handling straight line speed etc but just all round desirability, "soul", history sound etc etc. So fortunate to be able to indulge in this passion and comparing these cars "clinically" is silly IMO. This is a passion hobby which brings great pleasure. Most here I assume are "self-made" and reward themselves after many years of personal effort. There is no right or wrong - just be happy

 

I can’t fully agree with that since if they were country club cars, people who want to use them properly would not get on with them. I stopped buying Astons for reasons close to that. I probably have around 15 friends who drive and own supercars. None of them are country club guys (although we do have a suspicion about one... ) So, all drive really quickly, about three quarters have a Ferrari-based garage and the consensus is that Ferrari is a driver’s car not a country club car. They are all the sort of buyer who is extremely demanding, they are not blindly loyal, and they quickly complain if Ferrari treats them badly. But I have not really heard them complain about the cars. Take a Bentley to the club (I don’t have any friends with a Bentley to my knowledge).

Where there is some truth in what you say is that Ferrari, as with Lambo, Porsche and McLaren do need to make sure that the driving envelope of their cars is wide enough so that less experienced drivers will not kill themselves. Strangely, there is not too much legislation about this (I.e. the weight of legislation on CO2 is simply huge, but no one minds if you produce a car with a geometry so aggressive the car can not be safely driven by 95% of drivers) so it is for business reasons that manufacturers do this - no sense in killing your customer base!

The 488 is more benign than the Speciale for instance. Maybe you feel that is a point worthy of criticism but I can see some logic in it. It’s still a fully capable and extremely quick supercar. As for the V12s, they are certainly slower than you might expect (almost can’t believe I’m actually using a form of the word slow..) due to their added weight, but you hear many times from people like Chris Harris (who, by the way, has owned a number of ‘customer’ Ferraris) “I just can’t believe they are allowed to sell this to the public”.

Perhaps some people use their Ferraris for the country club only. I don’t know any in the UK. And certainly with DCT gearboxes you can pootle around in the modern cars (including McLaren) like never before. If that’s what you want to do, you can. But doesn’t that apply to all mainstream brands for all but the most excessive products?