The MYTH of the 348's handling foibles BUSTED | FerrariChat

The MYTH of the 348's handling foibles BUSTED

Discussion in '348/355' started by ///Mike, May 10, 2018.

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  1. ///Mike

    ///Mike F1 Veteran

    Dec 11, 2003
    6,097
    Bugtussle
    I've posted a link to a lower res version of this video in the past. The first ~half shows period footage of 348s being built, with cool contrasts between hand fitting body panels and Transformer-like robot welders that must have been pretty cutting edge 28 years ago.

    Starting at around 2:30 in the film we see a 348 being driven all out on the test track. The tail is intentionally thrown out ~45 degrees in pretty much every corner, and yet the car takes it with aplomb. Keep in mind that this an early 348, before the suspension geometry and track changes applied to later versions. Even as hard as the car is being pushed, it never does anything unexpected-- it just does what the driver tells it to.

    As I've said here before, setup is everything in a mid-engine car, especially one as "racy" as the 348. When the model was first introduced there was a huge waiting list for Ferraris, so I suspect some cars left Maranello without having been properly tested and set up. But I can tell you from thousands of track miles in an earlier 348TS (not mine) that even the first generation cars can be a dream on the track when they're set up correctly. Sadly, I don't have any video of my own laps, but this short film does a better job of illustrating that than I could anyway.

    The 348's "evil" handling characteristics myth is BUSTED:
     
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  2. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Aug 10, 2002
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    I raced my early sub frame 348 and it was a perfectly good handling car. It was no more or less precise than the 360 which also demanded very precise alignment settings to run well.
     
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  3. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Great video. I suspect that most new 348 owners were boulevard boys while the car itself had a race-inspired suspension. I recall that the '84 Corvette with its Z51 suspension had similar problems e.g. R&T loved it on the track (1g skidpad too) while other mag writers said it was too stiff. GM offered softer suspensions afterwards.
     
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  4. Chupacabra

    Chupacabra F1 Rookie
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    That's what happens when someone who knows how to drive takes one for a spin as opposed to some whiny journalist.
     
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  5. SoCal1

    SoCal1 F1 Veteran
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    I have no issue with the 348
    Set it to your driving style then go for it

    Must learn how to drive first :)
     
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  6. 4rePhill

    4rePhill F1 Veteran

    Oct 18, 2009
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    Ummmm........The driver is Claudio Ori, one of Ferrari's top test drivers "back in the day" (probably only second to Dario Benuzzi) - Basically, Ori is/was an incredibly talented driver.

    Claiming that the early 348's didn't have handling issues because Ori could get the car 45 degrees sideways and get it back in line again, is like saying an F1 car is a piece of p:censored:ss to drive because Sebastian Vettel can do it!

    Let's be totally honest here - There's a slight difference between a Ferrari test driver's driving talent, and the driving talent of the vast majority of Ferrari drivers!
     
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  7. Chupacabra

    Chupacabra F1 Rookie
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    That may be but it sill illustrates that the "problem" is not the machine. It is obviously not the near-death experience someone like Angus MacKenzie would have you believe. Trust me - I'd be dead, and I'm no Schumacher!
     
  8. ///Mike

    ///Mike F1 Veteran

    Dec 11, 2003
    6,097
    Bugtussle
    All of which has absolutely nothing to do with anything and has zero bearing on what I said in my post. People crash Camry's all the time. Doesn't mean Camrys have evil handling characteristics-- it just means the driver wasn't up to the task.

    Anyone with a background in high performance driving knows that you cannot drive in the manner shown in the video if the car is unstable or unpredictable. Clearly the driver's skills are well above those of even a very good club racer, but at those slip angles no amount of skill is going to save you if the car isn't predictable. Watch his hands on the wheel and the way the car reacts.

    I don't like it when someone starts blathering about their Mad Driving SkilZ in a public forum, so lets just say that I have literally tens of thousands of track miles in a very wide variety of production automobiles. I am nowhere close to slow, but my skills are nothing compared to the driver in the video. Without going too far down the path of self promotion, I'll just say that I have gone very quickly in an early TS under a variety of conditions and against a wide variety of other cars, including newer/faster Ferraris. A well set up 348 acquits itself extremely well for its age and power levels, even in the hands of someone not possessed of factory-test-driver level skills.

    FBB is an experienced racer and he has said the exact same thing in a post above. I know you take it upon yourself to trash the 348 at every opportunity, but in this case your subjective *opinion* is demonstrably wrong based on the real world experience of myself and others, and as demonstrated clearly in the linked video.

    As Wade intimated above, just because a driver is not good enough to handle a car doesn't mean the car is bad. And, as has been said over and over again here by myself and others, setup is critical on all of these cars, but just because a car is so poorly set up that it's undriveable doesn't mean there's something innately wrong with the car. Clearly some journalists (whose skills may not be as developed as they'd like to have you believe) got ahold of some early 348s that weren't properly set up, but two people with extensive track experience have said outright in this thread that an early 348 can be made to handle exceptionally well and the video fully illustrates that to anyone whose eyes are open to see it.

    So, once again, myth busted.
     
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  9. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    9,252
    The 348 (much like the early 911s) was a car that one had to plan out a turn, because once you start in, you are committed.
    That is there is no backing out half way through.

    The F355 (and later 348s) is a bit like this, but one you are committed, you can feather the throttle back a bit, but you still can't just pop out and expect the stability of the car to help.
     
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  10. bjwhite

    bjwhite F1 Rookie

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    Mitch, you’re wayyyyyy overstating the early 348 and later 348 differences....
     
  11. Davsk1

    Davsk1 Karting

    May 10, 2016
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    My own experience of the car is very lively at the back, it's not a flattering car to drive, you have to work and you have to be careful. The front just would not break and was very planted, the rear not so.

    Makes it for a really fun drive!

    This is a 1990 car, 89 build and is on F355 wheels. Geometry and ride height is as the original spec, did have the car corner weighted before the track day.

    On the video the back kicks out a little after it overtakes the civic at 4:40 with power off oversteer, and then a bit of snap oversteer at 5:00. You can't tell from the video how close the car 'feels' like stepping out like that when near the limit.

    It's horses for courses, I like the handling, it's really twitchy and very rewarding .

     
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  12. Jakuzzi

    Jakuzzi Formula 3

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    So..... A high-performance car is better suited for people who have driving skills........ AS IT SHOULD BE. ;)
     
  13. steved033

    steved033 F1 Veteran
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    ANY car is better suited for people who have driving skills...
     
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  14. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Nice recovery from the snap.
     
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  15. spaghetti_jet

    spaghetti_jet Formula Junior

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    The driver in the video is Dario Benuzzi. Legendary Ferrari test driver, he could do that stuff with a dumpster truck.

    The 348 is great, don’t get me wrong, but the driver’s skill in this case pretty high...
     
  16. KMR968Turbo

    KMR968Turbo Formula 3

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    Check this video out:



    Proof that the 911 Turbo doesn't deserve the widow maker reputation. ;)
     
  17. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
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    That's a rear-engined car and has nothing in common with a 348.
     
  18. bjwhite

    bjwhite F1 Rookie

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    He was using it as an example of a very skilled driver in a car with a “reputation”.
     
  19. Chupacabra

    Chupacabra F1 Rookie
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    Exactly, and I was thinking the same thing. Why do many nearly wax poetic (and nostalgic) about the "widowmaker" and it's quirks yet condemn the 348?

    Makes no sense!
     
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  20. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
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    So Ferrari totally redid the front and rear suspension on the 348 just because?
     
  21. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Correct, because the average new Ferrari buyer was mostly incapable driving the car safely at speed. Same with today's cars and all of their "driver aids".

    So evolve the car or your buyers go elsewhere.
     
  22. bjwhite

    bjwhite F1 Rookie

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    and that does happen sometimes. Audi redid the TT early on. Lancia redid the brakes on the Montecarlo. Some manufacturers redo alignment specs to dial in additional understeer in cars that are a bit oversteery (Honda S2000).

    It happens. But is it the difference between worthless or perfection? Absolutely not.
     
  23. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
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    My recollection is that as originally designed the car suffered from snap over steer off throttle. I think the video posted by the OP is pretty much evidence of that. I just wonder why people care about it or feel it's a myth that needs to be debunked. It isn't a myth so why try to deny it? That a talented driver can handle it isn't the point. Plenty of kids out there drifting cars these days would love it and consider it a bonus. :)
     
  24. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    That right there is the problem. The factory suspension and alignment settings SUCK. My 348 had a "happy" back end also. It would want to come around way to easy. That is until fatbillybob helped me lower my car and set the chassis rake. After I dropped it the handing changed BIG TIME. Then I dialed out a whole bunch of negative camber in the rear, and got the front end aligned = the car was so much better to drive.
     
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  25. Chupacabra

    Chupacabra F1 Rookie
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    The problem is that some people still tend to have this idea that the 348 is not a good Ferrari because of that. I think the point that is being made is that challenging does not equal crap, and there are plenty of examples of cars with tricky handling that don't catch the flak and even receive praise. It's inconsistent, and that drives me nuts, personally! :)
     
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