512TR - lost indicator and wiper functions | FerrariChat

512TR - lost indicator and wiper functions

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by juhani, May 13, 2018.

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  1. juhani

    juhani Karting

    Aug 28, 2012
    71
    Helsinki, Finland
    Full Name:
    Juhani
    Hi!

    Bumped into a problem I couldn’t solve, so trying to ask the hive mind if anyone would have helpful ideas.

    My problem started when I fixed my starting problem, my car wouldn’t start every time, trigger voltage on the starter solenoid was too low for some reason, so I decided to do a quick fix (will have to find the root cause when I have more time) and ran a cable from ignition switch to a relay that is connected to 12V and gives trigger voltage to starter solenoid. This worked great, but after this indicators and windshied wipers wouldn’t work anymore. Headlight switch works fine. Cheked connectors and fuses, hazard indicators work from center console switch.

    Would anyone have any ideas what could be wrong? Seems like maybe some positive or ground is missing. I tried to troubleshoot for a few hours but couldn’t figure out what’s wrong.
     
    kuwait355 likes this.
  2. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,822
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Don't have time to look at this now in detail, but my recollection is that, on 512TR, they did some clever wiring that disables the key services relay during starter motor cranking (and the key services relay is what supplies +12V when the key is "on" to enable things like the turn signal and wiper operation). The minus terminal of the key service relay coil is connected to terminal 50 (the white wire) of the starter solenoid (rather than directly to ground) -- this gives the behavior that when the key is "on" (Pos II) the key services relay is activated because terminal 50 looks like ground (the starter solenoid has a very low resistance); however, when the key is in POS III to crank the starter motor, this puts +12V on both sides of the key services relay coil and deactivates it. I'll have a peek at the 512TR schematics in a few hours so if you can describe the modification you made in more detail I'll see if it did mess up the key services relay operation and how/if it might be restored.
     
    juhani, turbo-joe and Melvok like this.
  3. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,822
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    My memory did not fail me ;) You will need to ensure that either the terminal in the F connector with the white wire (that normally goes to the starter solenoid terminal 50 and is what you probably used to control the added relay) or the terminal in the I connector with the white wire (that comes from the ignition switch Pos III) is directly, and always, connected to the starter solenoid terminal 50 in order to have proper operation the key services relay S.
     
  4. dgt

    dgt Formula 3
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jan 14, 2011
    1,292
    Northeast, USA & Oz
    Full Name:
    Andrew
    Yes, we went over this circuit in a 512TR starter thread. OP should search for these threads because it can go terribly wrong.

    As an update, I had my ND starter overhauled this past winter and now spins much faster and starts immediately. There are a couple of things that go wrong with these starters internally and mine had both, find a good shop to help.
     
    kuwait355 likes this.
  5. juhani

    juhani Karting

    Aug 28, 2012
    71
    Helsinki, Finland
    Full Name:
    Juhani
    Wow, thanks for the really informative replies! I will search the previous threads and try to get more understanding on how the starter system on TR works.
     
    kuwait355 likes this.
  6. juhani

    juhani Karting

    Aug 28, 2012
    71
    Helsinki, Finland
    Full Name:
    Juhani
    My starter works fine, just the voltage to activate the solenoid is too low. Sometimes the car starts, but most of the time nothing happens on POS III. If hotwiring 12V to trigger the solenoid the car starts immediately.
     
  7. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,822
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Here's the earlier thread that Andrew (dgt) mentioned:

    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/starting.567708/#post-145779793

    Just for full disclosure, I'm still opposed to adding the auxiliary relay (because of the difficulty of doing this in a robust way, and what can happen if the relay fails), and think you would be better served by ensuring the starter solenoid is fresh and adding a heavy jumper wire to directly connect the white wire in the I connector to the white wire in the F connector while not removing those wires from their connectors (which removes the flaky connectors and PCB from carrying the large solenoid current, but keeps their connections in place to keep relay S working correctly). JMO.
     
    Melvok likes this.
  8. dgt

    dgt Formula 3
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jan 14, 2011
    1,292
    Northeast, USA & Oz
    Full Name:
    Andrew
    I agree with Steve on the relay.

    Apart the connectors in the start circuit wiring, the ignition switch internal contacts burn out over time. You can measure the voltage drop to the white wire at the fuse board when starting.
    Also, adding a flyback diode to ground dumps the energy from the solenoid when the start switch is released which prolongs the contact life.
    I had to replace my ignition switch, it was unreliable and added a diode too.
     
  9. ago car nut

    ago car nut F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Aug 29, 2008
    5,501
    Madison Ohio
    Full Name:
    David A.
    Sometimes replacing the solenoid works. Check the cross reference to get a cheaper replacement
     
  10. juhani

    juhani Karting

    Aug 28, 2012
    71
    Helsinki, Finland
    Full Name:
    Juhani
    I already replaced my solenoid as the original one broke when trying to disconnect cables to clean contacts, old plastics had become brittle.

    Acutally I found a solution that works most of the time: took the pins of the starter circuit off the connectors, tightened them and used some contact spray on them. Cold start is fine, but sometimes the car doesn't start on the first try when warm, solenoid makes the initial click but nothing happens. After a few tries the starter usually turns over. Will do some further investigation when I have more time, but for now the car starts reasonably ok.

    Bumped into one more problem though, I can't find the VIN-plate anywhere in the car. Car is imported from Japan (VIN # ZFFLA40JAP0096674), no plate is found on door openings or engine bay where it's supposed to be on US- or EU-spec cars. Wound anyone have any ideas about this? If it's not on the car, I'd need to find a blank plate somewhere and get it stamped for the car at it's required by Finnish regulations.
     

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