MCLAREN 720S OR 488 | Page 110 | FerrariChat

MCLAREN 720S OR 488

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by doccharlie954, Jun 7, 2017.

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  1. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
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    Also, since you've got me intrigued.

    When I said the 580-2 was one of the least involving ever, it's quite accurate. New cars have all the latest and greatest driver aides. They don't have manuals, they have extremely capable TC/ESP that often can't even be completely turned off, they have better and better tires, they launch for you, they have all the latest and greatest technology to make you faster without gaining any skill. Heck, even if you buy some modern manuals they do things like rev matching for you IIRC.

    If you wanted a very involving drive, you definitely wouldn't be buying a new GT2 RS. If anything you'd be buying a 997 GT2 RS or a 996 GT2 or some other random older car. You'd buy cars without ABS, TC/ESP, you'd heel/toe. So yes, I stand by my statement that the 580-2 is one of the least involving exotics ever made. Manufacturers are making cars easier and easier to drive fast. While I've never drive them, which car in each pair do you think is more involving to drive fast: F40 vs LF, P1 vs F1, CGT vs 918? I just find it very hard to carry on about "driver involvement" and then go out and buy a car with a DCT.

    Secondly, since I did a search and found it, here is what was actually said regarding McLaren storage space. Here is someone's statement about it and then is my reply:


    Sorry, but his comment was plain dumb and I believe my comments were accurate.
     
  2. Gh21631

    Gh21631 F1 Veteran
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    So you reviewed over 100 pages and have not found 1 example of what you claim. Seems about right... You have continuously badgered and insulated people for reasons that only exist in your mind. I can understand you might feel the need to run and hide.
     
  3. Coincid

    Coincid F1 Rookie

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    How about a truce so the conversation will return to cars and away from petty bickering and personal insults.
     
  4. nmcclure

    nmcclure Formula Junior
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    so...to go back to the questions on page 1, both cars are sub MSRP cars now secondhand, the 720s can be had off sticker new, Ferrari can not. There will tons of both for sale over the next 12 months.

    720s is significantly faster than 488 on track in my experience, in fact the 720 is the fastest car I've driven that is not open cockpit. I actually think both cars are almost too fast for their lack of safety features, and to my knowledge, no way of adding them stateside.

    I think the 488 sounds better, and aesthetically looks better, but there is no denying the 720 performance. Interior is a toss up, I think ferrari is becoming a bit dated and wish the 488 would of had a refresh to match some of the other F-cars.

    Will be interesting to see how the new LT stacks up against the Pista. Hopefully within 18 months I will have both so will be fun to do a comparison. 1 thing is for sure, with turbos, the fastest car is always the next one to be released. If Mac had a greater dealer network, I think they would end up with more market share, but its really not convenient for many people.
     
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  5. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    Fastest but not necessarily the most fun. Drove a Porsche Turbo S the other day. Fast as hell. So much more boring than my GT3 RS even though the GT3 RS is tons slower.

    This if anything is my personal knock on the Mac. While both 488 and 720 are turbo, you dont feel the turbo lag in the 488 where as you do in the 720. Its minor but Im not a fan of it. Other than that- the 720 is amazing.
     
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  6. Shadowfax

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    I was never sold on the look of the 720 and find it even less attractive each time I see it. I can't imagine the design is going to date well imho. The drive also didn't give anywhere near the same connection the 488 gave and the sound was also quite ordinary which didn't help things - sounded somewhat crudish and agricultural at higher rpm - similar sounding yet still better sounding than 650 and the 570S, which to me both sounded like farm tractors being thrashed from the outside.

    Ferrari definitely owns 720 in connection, feel, sound and looks imo. The only area where 720 shone really was in having a (slightly) harder acceleration once the lag was overcome (off the line and on the go) but then you need to be right up it to experience that and you can only do for a matter of a second or two on most roads anyway. So the main attraction of having a faster straight line performance was not really that accessible 99.999% of the time anyway.

    720's lag was also annoying in on off throttle inputs although better than 570s and 650 which were terribly laggy. I found the lag constantly required careful management which was frustrating in on off throttle applications between high speed corners - particularly on corner exit where the power is slammed back on and then you get this momentary lull before all hell breaks loose. Thankfully the 488 doesn't have that issue and just obeys the throttle inputs, delivering the power more smoothly evenly and predictably. That makes a LOT of difference. 488 also feels more hardwired and connected with the driver overall making for what I consider to be a more exciting and engaging drive and for me that is a big part of what these types of cars are about - the feel and connection - the sensations - especially if you drive them in sporty driving environments most of the time like I do.

    720 is obviously the better tool for drags and the likes due to its better accel #'s but beyond that the 488 owns it everywhere else in terms of look, feel, sound and driver engagement.

    I would agree with the criticism that the 488's entertainment system and functionality is surprisingly outdated for the vintage (which is annoying for sure at times) but visually I found 488's interior more appealing than the Mac which to me had a rather bland look but to be fair on 720 I think it also depends on how the 488 interior is optioned up as it too can look quite bland in a non optioned form. The steering wheel of Mac looks truly terrible imho.

    I'm not going to touch too much on the depreciation factor of 720 but based on history it will be interesting to see how it fares over the next few years. I don't want to be negative but I personally wouldn't hold high hopes. 720 is overall an awesome car in a number of ways but at this stage in the game it's not for me or my money - the 488 OTOH delivers where it counts. My 2 cents.
     
  7. wrs

    wrs F1 World Champ
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    I would say that Ferrari has done a masterful job of managing the torque profile using the turbos for the Cali T and the 488. I was amazed at how smooth and strong the Cali T acceleration was compared to my 991tts. The latter just slams you back with huge acceleration but there is a lag and that lag in corners at the track is a problem. I never felt completely confident in corners with the 991tts because you have to maintain throttle input but overdoing it brings on the turbos big time and you then lose the rearend and oh boy at that point in a 911............

    The Cali T HS and the 488 are easy to push through corners and much more forgiving of any over throttling in the turn. The 488 is even better in the turns than the Cali as it's got a wider shorter wheelbase and the torque is good in the lower gears used for turns. You can always put yourself safely in the power band when cornering the Cali or 488, I never felt that to be the case with the Porsche and so I always let it choose by being in auto mode when driving at the track. I didn't use auto at all when I took the Cali T to the track and I may not with the 488 either. It's just too much of a blast to run the shifting myself.
     
  8. noone1

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    #2733 noone1, May 15, 2018
    Last edited: May 15, 2018
    To me this is odd. The lag is barely present. Also, why would you be bothered by a small amount of lag if you were in the wrong gear for what you wanted to experience? To me this situation would be like cruising at 3K rpm in 4th gear and then suddenly wanting max performance instantly. Might there be a bit of lag if you step on it? Sure, but that begs the question of why you would be in that gear and at that RPM in the first place. When going for what people call a "spirited" drive, I would expect to keep the car in that excited state/range where lag is non-existent.

    Now I agree that power delivery isn't totally linear, but it's not exactly parabolic either unless, again, you're in the wrong gear or just doing something you probably shouldn't. Downshift to first and then go full throttle out of a hairpin with way too much steering angle and it's not going to be the best experience. On track could be different I guess if you're not a pro (and I'm not), but I don't think I would ever drive track-like on a normal road. The speeds involved with these cars are just way too high and the roads are generally not terribly abrupt like tracks are.

    I have no doubt in my mind that most of the performance of the 720S (or 488) is unusable on normal roads given the pace at which they accelerate. You could easily spin either of the off a cliff if you just decide to floor it when you shouldn't. Some lady on the McLaren forums just rolled her 720S buy going stupid fast on a road she just didn't expect. I doubt a 488 would have ended any different for her. This is actually why I haven't bought a 720S yet or any new car -- they are becoming too quick to do anything other than tap the throttle for 1.2s.

    The thing that always gets me about the 488 vs McLaren in driver engagement and excitement is that I don't see why people looking for those things are buying a 488 in the first place. You shouldn't be buying new, you should be buying old, going backwards. I mean, these new cars on the latest tires make little work of normal roads at anything short of insane speeds. So if the driving characteristics and engagement of a 488 is so much greater than a McLaren, why isn't a manual 430 the car to get? Or the manual 360? Why not just get a Porsche CGT instead of moving up to a Pista?

    The point I'm trying to make is that the sought after things that rationalize a 488 over a McLaren are the things that seem to exist in spades in older cars instead. Manual shifting, getting to drive hard without going 150mph, heel toe, better exhaust sound, less (no?) TC/ESP, don't put the latest Cup2 tires on, etc.

    So my big questions for anyone who says 488 > 720S are:

    488 or manual 430?
    488 Pista vs CGT?
    488 vs manual 360?

    To me, those cars on the right should have much more involvement, should sound much better, should require more skill to drive on the limits, and should more easily reach those limits on normal roads.
     
  9. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    I know this is going to make me unpopular, but I agree with this 100%, except that 360 and 430 are already driven by the computers too much.
     
  10. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie
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    This thread is about 488 and 720 so if you now wish to introduce another 3 cars into the mix then why not start another thread and invite specific debate about those?

    You also seem to want to skirt the issue of lag - which does exist like it or not. To say the engine has to be kept at high RPM out of the lag zone means the turbo torque benefits of having a wider range of flexibility are superfluous. And, that I totally disagree with. This is the beauty of these types of engines where you can fly hard into a hairpin and exit without the need of dropping the engine back 3 to 4 gears.
     
  11. Aircon

    Aircon Ten Time F1 World Champ
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    Damn it, I agree with this too.

    So....SF and NO are both right lol
     
  12. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
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    Umm because the quotatio was retorical.
    I thought it was pretty obvious that the questions were rhetorical.

    The point is that when it comes to 488 vs 720S, it's the engagement and connection to the car that makes the 488 superior. However, when it comes to 488 vs other Ferraris in which all those traits are actually worse in the 488, the 488 ends up being that car you buy. It sounds to me that what you're after is not all the things you mention, but simply a newer, shinier car with potentially more bragging rights and needless performance. Or maybe you're like me an 90% of your purchase decision is just based on how the car looks.

    Regarding the lag, to me it makes little sense to rationalize better throttle response of a 488 vs a 720S, but then choose a 488 over a 458 or any modern NA Ferrari. Even Ferrari will tell you that there is some degree of lag. It's small, but it exists. You say it's very, very small and so it's not really noticeable, but when reviews all say the 720S barely has any lag, it's somehow way too much for you.

    I mean you describe 720S lag to the point of being annoying and giving you trouble in corners, yet every review of the car says there is hardly any, especially if you're up in the revs. I am honestly of the opinion that you might not be using the car under proper load and in the wrong gear for what you want to happen, and just assuming it has tons of lag. And no, you don't need to click down 3-4 gears. In fact, you probably rarely have to switch more than 1 gear. The minimum speed you'll ever encounter on public roads other than coming to stop (at least in the US) is 30 mph. 30 mph is the average speed of residential streets and it's unlikely back roads would ever accommodate such a wide range of gears. 1st gear goes up to probably like 35 mph and 4th gear goes up to like 130 mph. Most back road driving will probably be going between 2/3 and 3/4.

    I'm not sure how you really would have trouble with lag in a 720S on normal roads unless you're just driving weird or perhaps just nor comfortable with the speed you should be taking it. And yes, even though turbos generally have more low-end torque, it doesn't mean they will exhibit ideal performance when not under proper load.
     
  13. MANDALAY

    MANDALAY F1 World Champ
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    Your first paragraph, don't agree. Looks like your describing a small N/A engine with nor torque. No lag on the 488. What Ferrari has achieved is excellent programming in their boost by gear, much better than the Mac.

    Further on your response you start to go on another tangent.

    Here is a thought since you are going that way. Get yourself a 360. Then go to the 360 section and argue with those that knock the 360. You can have them definitely on a credit card.
    See mate IMO I know there are many on this site that don't actually own a Ferrari, **** I haven't received mine yet ! But I never have in the past or even currently alienate myself by pissing on someone's parade. I came on this site because I knew I was going to own one and wanted to increase my knowledge. Could have had 360,430. 458 but there was always something I didn't like. I don't post to start an argument. You make comments which you know will get responses to feed you. For me enough is enough.
     
  14. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    How can you have such profound opinions on the 488 when you have never driven one? Mind boggling.
     
  15. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
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    Can you tell me what profound opinions I've given on the 488 specifically?
     
  16. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    Do you not read what you write?
     
  17. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
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    Just point a couple out for me.
     
  18. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    I’ll ask again...Do you not read what you write?

    Just stick with your Camry. I think you will find no turbo lag on it at all.
     
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  19. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
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    And I'll ask again: Show me a couple It would take you less time to show me some than to write a witty response.

    I'll stick to my Camry and you can stick to a paint scheme you probably have no connection to but cherish.
     
  20. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    Your Pontification on the turbo lag on the 488 vs the drivabitly of the 458 was quite profound.

    Even more so when you don’t own either car and haven’t driven either car.
     
  21. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
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    I mean, can you just copy and paste it? I'm looking at the text your quoted and I don't see anything comparing the turbo lag of a 488 to 458. I mean, I think I recall that the 458 does have better throttle response than the 488, if that's what you're talking about... I believe Ferrari provides these numbers...

    Have driven a 458 BTW, just not a 488.
     
  22. SoCal to az

    SoCal to az F1 World Champ
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    You don’t own either car.

    You haven’t driven either car.

    Don’t you get it, the mere fact you are even referencing the 458 or the 488 and how they drive is comical.

    You have no credibility on the topic.

    I can’t believe I’ve wasted this much time on this with you.
     
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  23. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie
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    We are talking about noone1 here don't forget - a person with great genius and knowledge who doesn't need to drive anything to know if it's any good. He can tell just by the magazine article or the manufacturers marketing bulletins exactly what's good and what's not and, if the car is being driven correctly. Fchats walking talking encyclopedia on everything supercar. Gotta love him for his tenacity in defending his beloved choices...
     
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  24. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax F1 Rookie
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    OMG. Please stop....

    I think you have done me in finally. I can't take it anymore...
     
  25. noone1

    noone1 F1 Rookie
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    Shadowfax, just tell me why you opted for a 488 over all other mid-engine, V8 Ferraris you had to choose from.

    Also, what tracks do you typically drive on and do you have any lap times you could share in various Ferrari's you've driven on them? Perhaps you have some 488 lap times?
     

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