My (Bob) Norwood Experience

Reading threads like this makes me so glad I can roll up my sleeves and get a lot of things done myself on my projects.

Afterwards you realise that none of it is rocket science, sure you learn from your failures but you don't get ripped off to such an extent either.

His method of billing after the event reminds me so much of my divorce lawyer!

I do have to say though that the project you bought does sound like a basket case that was far to gone to resurrect, the one Norwood was selling with the genuine 288 proto rear end was a much better example.

 

So?

Go ahead and charge me to find a part and charge me to learn how to install it because you have never done it before. Have at it. Free market, right?

I'll just stick with shops that are experienced in both areas and don't have to run my bill up with a big ass learning experience.


And finding very hard to find parts now is 1000.00% easier than it ever has been - ever - and that is just flat out irrefutable.

So I think Bob needs to charge his clients every time he even thinks about their car AND let everyone here know it, since it's such a great thing. Let us decide where we will go.

 

Charging to move my car into the shop. Are you effing kidding me? Does he charge for washing if it rains?

At the end of the day, it really comes down to the total bill. If his hourly rate is less than competition,... it may equal out. But sure looks bad on a bill!

 

I'll start by saying I'm not attempting to offer a blanket defense/justification for all of Norwood's invoice items. Quite frankly, the .5 labor to "Pull GTO into shop" is ludicrous. Hell, pulling it into the shop and putting on the lift shouldn't take more than 10 minutes. He's over-billing labor on several items.

Having said that. To speak on general shop labor/billing practices:

What do you mean, "so?" If you're doing your own 308 maintenance, you're free to order whatever part from any source you like, spend hours installing it into the car, and suffering your own consequences of time and cost if the part was faulty. You don't charge yourself for labor, and it's on you to deal with getting the supplier to take the part back in exchange or refund.

If a shop orders a bad alternator from Jimmy's Discount Junkyard Alternators, and installs it in your car - do you pay them to do all the work over again, or do you demand they eat the cost? I'm betting the latter. Because of this, the shop is going to spend the time making sure they've ordered a quality part from a quality supplier. They are going to warranty the install. That's why you pay the shop more, than "ordering it at 2am when you're up to take a leak."

You are conflating the argument to a point I haven't made.

Experience with a particular car or procedure doesn't mean you might not have to spend 30 minutes with a wiring diagram to determine where potential faults lie. Do doctors just prescribe antibiotics for every ouchie, or do they take time (and charge you) to diagnose your medical condition?

Sure is. Receiving counterfeit or crap parts is easier than ever, too. Do you have the equipment and expertise to check runout on new rotors, or do you just slap them on and drive away (since they are new, they must be perfect, right?)

You gave an example of a distributor cap. Here's one for you: at 2am, whilst on your iPhone and taking a leak, I want you to find me 4 new-in-box, original-style CV boot flanges for a 1984 QV.

 

Well then will you allow me to purchase the parts and supply them to you to save you the time? Or will you tell me, like most shops do, that you can't use customer supplied parts because you can't guarantee they're any good, or warranty the work?

When Algar rebuilt my Dino, I spent time with the mechanic discussing what parts to use, and what sources to buy them from. Rather than make their parts guy crazy trying to find the tough stuff, I sourced them from the vendors my Algar mechanic suggested, and we were both very happy with the results, AND, Algar warranteed the work.

There were no line items costs listed for "Discussions with Dave about what parts to order."

Do you not markup parts that you order? the markup should cover the time/cost of the ordering. OR, maybe that time is overhead, and you should just fluff up your hourly rate a little, OVERALL, to cover it.

I've never been directly charged, line item charged, for buying parts, but I know that's not free, it's in the other costs.

D

 

Isn't that what the nonsense "shop supplies" charge is always for lol

 

Those of you complaining about the cost to move car into shop....I guess you guys didn't read the part about how the car arrived with no rear wheels or rear suspension?

 

You think all those supplies are free?

 

Tom I fully agree with you. Seems one industry can charge for consultation while others cannot. I've helped dozens of guys vet and purchase 355's and never charged a penny. In some cases, I've spend hours upon hours helping these guys. I do it because I like to help and 99% of the guys I helped are very appreciative but once and a while you run into the guys that are just takers. When I come across one of them, I start considering charging for my help.

 

Aha - no, i didnt notice that bit. Definitely explains the labor time. (Personally, I wouldnt be doing a line item charge for it.)

 

And you nailed it.

The difference between a shop that values its customers and the shop that doesn’t.

This is why guys love old school indies that aren’t out to snare a few extra bucks here and there. Who cares how it showed up to the shop. The front wheels were on, you’re telling me they didn’t have any dollies or wheelies for the back? Cmon man.

 

You should charge, mechanics are very underpriced, all these guys with ferraris complain and complain about pricing. I have the best tech here I've ever met, you know him, he charges $125/hour. My attorney is $1200/hour, im scared to email my attorney he bills a ridiculous amount for that. I really don't mind paying alot for good work which matt does, he's the best I've dealt with, where I gett annoyed is when you pay $150-200/hour and you get half ass service. Matt charges $125/hour but you talk to him directly, not a service advisor, he gives you the complete run down himself, and he's a nice guy. If your technician does that, then I have no issue paying more and I don't think anyone else should, in the scope of things we see our mechanic once a year if that.....if he's good. I think the quality of crap technicians charging alot is real, let matt tell you about the highly regarded shop I dealt with before my car, what a disaster, you cant talk with the tech only the owners wife and she had no idea wtf was going on, but I had to use them bc they were the only shop the dealer I bought my car from would work with.

 

It sucks to have to stand behind your work doesn't it?

1. Are you trying to tell us that charging a customer to for your time to order the part is necessary to be able to warranty it?

2. Are you suggesting that it is actually MORE difficult and MORE time consuming to find that CV joint boot now that it was in 1981?

Here is the deal - I am a believer in the free market and I think Bob and anyone else should charge as MUCH as they want for whatever the want to charge us for. I will stick with shops that are well experienced and don't have to charge me to learn how to put that CV boot on from a YouTube video. That is my choice and I am waiting for someone here to tell me that tmy choice is a bad choice.

If you want to charge someone to order a part and then charge them watch a YouTube vid on how to put that part on - great. Is there a problem with telling the customer up front that this is how it is going to be? Tell them in the beginning that you have never done it before so there will be a separate professional fee to learn how. Why hide that is if is the best way to go?

If it is such a grand idea that you want to defend to the death - Fine, don't spring the bill in the end. Why hide it? Let us know before you lay a hand on the car. Nothing wrong with that is there?

 

The guy that worked on my Jaguar E-Type - Terry Lippincott - is one of these "old school" indies. His quoted hourly rate to work on my car was half the price of the cheapest person I could find! This is a guy that does 100 point restos, has a great industry reputation (some ads tout "worked on by Lippincott"), and has a waiting list to get work done at times.

When I asked him "why would you charge so little for this work?" - he chuckled and said that these cars offered him a lifestyle, a career, a path forward. It put food on the table and helped educate his kids - he wasn't in it to rob people blind, it was a labor of love. He also took me around his garage, and told me "I rarely get to meet my clients in person". I was floored...this guy is the real deal, and I would never take my car ANYWHERE else. A dying breed.

Once a precedent has been set, it's awfully hard to deal with another that deviates from it. Just saying.

 

The legal term you are looking for, when discussing Norwood, is bull****ter. Hope that helps

 

Agree, if a guy charges a pretty basic hourly rate then its clear its not an all encompassing one, and he has to cover any non spannering time spent on the project by listing additional input time. However make the customer aware of this up front so they don't then have a heart attack much further down the line when the bill finally comes in and its way much more then the budget figure.

 

Matt and I are good friends and do a lot of business together - I speak with him several times a week. Each time I speak with him, I'm more amazed than the time before - the guy knows his stuff and is a super cool dude.

 

Lots of businesses are increasing fees for services previously not charged at all.

Maybe it is because someone is greedy, or maybe they identified a cost that some customers took up the time and other customers were in effect subsidizing the lost time.

It is not cheap running a business today, costs and fees rise almost daily. If a business does not charge for every minute they spend either they loose money or another customer pays for it.

Anyone take a look at their hospital bill lately ?

 

I think part of the problem is that for some of us this (car stuff) is a hobby, for some of us it's a job and for some of us it is both.

Russ's project was a bespoke one off. There is no preccident for a 355 drivetrain in a 308. I'm pretty sure it has been done before, but it's not like there is a step by step procedure manual for it.

Plus this is an abandoned project Russ is starting with that already has short comings from what he thought he was buying.

I agree with Russ that the initial updated invoice and estimate seemed reasonable at the time.

Aaron

 

No, it doesn't suck. But it's sounding like some people think it sucks to have to pay for that expertise and guarantee.

I know a tech who has sources that the average owner has no knowledge of. He's spent years developing these contacts. Others have spent a lot of time learning what works, what doesn't, what's real, and what's counterfeit. All of this contributes to a solid, reliable repair. Why should that service be free?

I promise you it is.

You keep saying that, as if I suggested that's a great business practice. I certainly haven't.

If I don't know how to do something a client needs, I tell them as much... and, if I believe I can accomplish the task with research. The cost factor - either way - is something I'm completely transparent about.

 

10k for a few hours in an ER because I thought I was having a heart attack. Makes me want to never set foot inside an ER again. I was getting charged by doctors I never saw.

 

IE, the shop towel laundry has always been $1200mo. The customer paid for it one way or the other. Now it's simply listed on the invoice so the true costs are known to them.

It's like a "free alignment with 4 tires" has never actually been free.

 

If I may...looking up parts for ANY car should be absolutely free. Additionally, all the trivial work (e-mails, phone calls, etc.) that goes into selling parts should ALSO be free, period. The only thing the customer should ever pay for is the actual part itself or the work! Any place that charges any type of payment for the simple process of finding parts/part numbers has unethical business practices. Sorry to hear this story!

 

Solid business practices and billing is a sure fire formula for repeat customers and loyalty.
Was is in the automotive repair industry for over 30 years and when it comes to projects such as this GET IT IN WRITING, spend $1000 to meet one on one and go through every system in the vehicle and what is expected. No handshakes, no good old boy, no I told you over the phone etc. If change of course is necessary, get it in writing also. It will always certainly cost more than estimated but then you have a solid baseline to work from should problems arise. On that note I will say this should be turned over for legal representation immediately and stop posting here. Moving someone’s property to an undisclosed location, forcing signatures holding one party Legally absolved and demanding what sounds like ransom has my head spinning.

 

Jeremy, I agree but I think what Tom was saying is a bit different. Looking through a parts diagram, finding the P/N and providing the customer the price and availability should be free. But, I think it's different when a guy goes on a hunt for a part that is no longer available. I certainly don't charge for that in hopes of getting the business. I'm sure you are the same. But let's face it, some customers will ask you to do the leg work and then go around you to save a penny. But sadly, that is just how the world works some times. We are fortunate to have very good and loyal customers which we appreciate.