My (Bob) Norwood Experience | Page 3 | FerrariChat

My (Bob) Norwood Experience

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by Russ Gould, May 23, 2018.

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  1. Continental AutoSports

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    Point well received. But if we were to "charge" every time we had to search for parts that have been discontinued for 30 years I could retire :) I haven't a clue what the percentages are for the parts I look up, that take days to find, that never get sold. However every part I search for, if it's an extremely hard one to find, and don't end up selling it, I take it as knowledge regarding said part I didn't have before.
     
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  2. sidtx

    sidtx F1 Rookie
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    I get the shop towels or supplies charge at all the current dealers I use (Ford, BMW, VW and Hyundai).

    Sid
     
  3. thorn

    thorn F1 Rookie
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    Yep. Makes it far easier for accounting purposes.

    And that Service Writer... the one who makes all the calls, writes the emails, writes the estimates, and orders the parts - they don't work just for tips.
     
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  4. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    And this is one main reason larger businesses must charge more than garage, back yard operations - over head :) Once in a while I need to explain our pricing structure to a prospective customer as they don't realize others are not working out of large buildings with expensive equipment, materials, employee's etc. :)
     
  5. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
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    There are always going to be difficult to near impossible to find parts for these cars due to the obvious availability. I will never dispute that.

    My point is not that - it is that FINDING those parts is infinitely infinitely infinitely easier than ever before. Back in 1978 how could some guy in Fulda Germany let me know he had an extra power mirror switch for a 76 glass car lying around in the back of a drawer upstairs in his bedroom? Magazine ad - in America?? Like I would even see that magazine...

    Today he takes a picture of it with his phone, posts in here or somewhere else and I find it by typing in power mirror switch fiberglass 308. It takes, what? 0.0007865 seconds to located it? At 2 am Sunday morning when I am up taking a piss...

    But you already knew all that.
     
  6. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
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    #56 Dr Tommy Cosgrove, May 24, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: May 25, 2018
    Maybe we can sticky a thread and have all the shops here post their policy on charging for emails, pushing cars around a shop, ordering a part and - most importantly - how much they will add to a bill to learn how to do something they never did before before you are the first they try in on.

    What is wrong with that? If that ******* dip**** thought it was so great to charge me to figure out crank position sensors on a 84 308 because he didn't have a clue - he should have been proud enough and not afraid of that fee to tell me up front before I delivered the car. If it is a fantastic and well worth the fee service to google "where are the crank position sensors on an 84 Ferrari 308" and "crank position sensor function 84 Ferrari 308" he should have told me in the beginning. Why not tell me in the beginning?

    2 Questions:

    1. WHY not tell me there would be an added fee to figure out how to do it IN THE BEGINNING?

    2. After I leave, does the next Ferrari 308 crank position R&R that comes in have to pay the same added fee even though he already knows how to do it? If not, looks like the first guy is the only one that gets screwed, right?

    I would really like to hear an honest serious answer to both of these questions by a tech.
     
  7. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
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    But in the meantime, let's not get to far off on a tangent here and let Bob unknowingly get us all pissed at each other! :D
     
  8. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    Alright Russ, what is the next chapter?
     
  9. randkin

    randkin Formula 3
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    #59 randkin, May 24, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: May 25, 2018

    That was my thought as well but Norwood should have made it VERY clear that was the case and if he did decide to take on the "project" he should have given OP a high ball park estimate to start and kept OP up to date as issues arose and what he projected the NEW cost to be.

    My guess is that Norwood didn’t have a lot of work going when the car came in and as he got into the project there was more involved than he expected but did not “manage the expectations” of OP and acted as though he had a blank check. So neither party were ever really on the same page. Unless OP is some kind of auto tech expert he would have no idea of the issues and costs involved. Norwood obviously did not do any kind of job keeping OP up to speed. Consequently both parties had a very different opinions how the work is progressing.

    Still I have to put shame on Norwood as he is one in charge of the work and communication with OP. Had he acted in a reasonable manor I think much of the misunderstanding could have been avoided or OP would have taken his car back and paid for the part of the work that was completed and agreed.
     
  10. ATSAaron

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    Dr Cosgrove, you keep mentioning common or routine maintenance or repair items. This was not the case. This was an incomplete 308 getting an unknown condition 355 drivetrain and rear suspension. I think some research into it was merited.

    Also we've gotten so far off topic that I don't remember how many hours Bob charged for research in this case.

    Aaron
     
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  11. ATSAaron

    ATSAaron Formula 3
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  12. Dr Tommy Cosgrove

    Dr Tommy Cosgrove Three Time F1 World Champ
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    This certainly is a special situation. Much different than routine maintenance etc. I agree
     
  13. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula 3

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    #63 Russ Gould, May 24, 2018
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
    Wow, this is just the introduction, no work had been done at this point, the interesting parts are yet to come.

    All the discussion about being charged to order parts ... I thought I posted above that this was an entirely specious (to be kind) charge as no parts were ordered (or even researched) at this time .. the project was on hold waiting for the title. There are plenty more instances, later, where these charges appear so at least we have this discussion out of the way.

    The supplies charge was kinda penny-ante as again, no work was done but somehow supplies were used. During the course of the project, Bob Norwood charged $2000 for supplies and in addition, charged almost every nut, screw, washer, bolt, dash of gas, dab of glue, tube of sealant explicitly. I have read the estimates many times and I don't see any line item "Supplies". Nor "Ordering Parts". Nor "Talking to Russ". Nor "Emailing Russ".

    As for moving the car, the rear of the car was on casters when it came off the trailer. The front wheels were on (just ... only one bolt each side as the bolt pattern of the wheels did not match the bolt pattern of the hubs). And the rear half of the 308 chassis had been entirely cut out and removed so photos aside, there was nothing in the car to mount rear wheels to .. but that's another story entirely, currently before the courts.

    As for this being a unique project ... Bob told me that he has been doing these 288 conversions for decades. He had two in his shop when I first met him, and two more out back in his storage barn. He normally takes a 308 motor, fits it up to a Porsche transmission, and puts it in longitudinally. This requires a total reconstruction of the rear half of the car. In this case, the plan was to use the (provided) 355 motor/tranny/subframe, and that actually fits in a standard 308 wheelbase so there is no need to lengthen the wheelbase. He seemed nonplussed by the 355 motor, and never said anything like "gee, never done this before, better add $5K to the estimate in case". Rather, he seemed to know exactly what to do, for example putting the factory ECUs and engine wiring harnesses in a box and sending them home with me; quoting for custom carbon fiber wheelhouses; and installing the 355 subframe in the rear. But this is a great segue to Chapter 2, where it soon becomes apparent that there were several things that Bob overlooked while he had the car for two months and was making a list, checking it twice ....
     
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  14. ATSAaron

    ATSAaron Formula 3
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    If the provided motor was from a OBD2 355 then I would have also leaned towards an aftermarket ECU as well. OBD2 has so many emissions related sensors that you may have ended up with hours upon hours of troubleshooting trouble code diagnostic time.

    When I saw the car last year, I think it was August 17, the biggest hurdle they mentioned was using the 355 rear subframe.

    Oh, and I saw the other short body 288 conversion that you (Russ) mentioned in the first post. It had wheel spacers on it to make the wheels flush to the body...except the body was so lopsided that it had two different thickness spacers on it! The rear spoiler attached to the engine/trunk lid was basically all bondo, it weighed like 75lbs on it's own. Also at least one of the fog lights fell off during shipping of that car too. Norwood remakes the original 288 foglight mounting brackets, but they don't clear a normal US 308 frame without some work.

    Aaron
     
  15. Russ Gould

    Russ Gould Formula 3

    Nov 8, 2004
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    To recap, car was delivered to Norwood Autocraft in early Feb, sans title. While waiting for title, no work was done but I requested written estimates, which were provided totaling around $25K to do mechanical and electrical work. Around beginning of April, I received a message from the infamous "Big Red" wanting to know whether they could go ahead as they were "clear of a bunch of work". It looked like the title was in the works so I asked Norwood to check the condition of the 355 motor and to pay special attention to the condition of the belts and the valve train, and the exhaust manifolds as I know enough to be cautious with these motors. I told him I did not want to have to pull the motor out again to fix anything. We'll come back to that point.

    A day or so later, I received a phone call in which Bob stated he had done a leakdown test and that there were some weak readings, but he said when he tapped on the valves with a hammer, the reading came up so he said it was carbon buildup. He also sent me a pic of the oil filter, cut open, and said it was clean. He said the belts and manifolds were OK. And he said there was no sign of blowby, the inlet manifold was clean as a whistle or words to that effect. He did not mention the condition of the plugs, something that raises its head later; nor did he mention any problems with manifold leaks or valve train timing.

    Shortly thereafter, the title showed up so I gave Norwoods a written go-ahead to proceed with the engine installation only, stating that when he had done that we would regroup; and I also conditioned my go-ahead with some "Rules of the Road". I attach that email.

    A flurry of activity ensued. Bob would text me photos almost every evening. They worked Sundays which struck me as odd, as there was no urgency to this project. A few days into the project, he informed me that the subframe mounting pillars that they had made to attach the top of the subframe to the rails in the engine bay, would have to be cut out and redone as the subframe was not aligning correctly with the flanges they had welded to what was left of the 308 chassis (the two oval tubes); then a couple of days later, he informed me that the rear suspension corners (A arms with hubs) that were supplied loose with the car, would not fit up to the subframe. They were 308 parts and only the lower(?) A arm fit up to the subframe. The rest would not. He stated that if worst came to worst he would fabricate a new set of A arms to fit, but added that they had also measured the supplied rear wheels and that the A arms would have to be stubby, about 2" in reach, to make it all fit, bearing in mind that adapters would also have to be made to accommodate the bolt pattern mismatch on the wheels. This sounded like a very expensive way to go. In the estimates, the only provisions we had made for rear suspension parts were two shock/spring assemblies and Bob said he had a used pair; for a torsion bar; and for one half shaft.

    The other option was to order an entire 355 rear suspension from Ferrparts. This sounded like the answer, but it meant that the rear wheels would probably not fit as they were too wide. Ferrparts quoted $2500 for the whole thing and Bob said that's what he would invoice me, as I think he felt a little guilt for missing the fact that the 308 suspension would not fit up to the 355 subframe. He would also need to get two 355 half shafts.

    The next snafu came when Bob and co. tried to fit the motor and subframe into the car. He decided to go ahead with the fitup despite the rear suspension being absent and a bit of a mystery. I told him that made me nervous as we could not move the wheel wells, the bodywork was set in concrete (well GRP actually). But Bob and his guys were on a mission and nothing stood in their way. Well until they tried to fit the motor. It seemed it would not fit due to the gas tanks and there being no room for the rather large oil cooler as well as the oil tank, since this is a dry sump motor. When Bob informed me that he was stuck, I told him to call Carl Steuer at Black Horse in LA as Carl had done one of these 355/308 jobs prior and when I talked to Carl about the engine fitup (before buying the car), he told me it would fit without stretching the chassis, but the one gas tank had to be modified among other things. Apparently Carl and Bob got along and Bob was able to figure out how to fit the motor into the subframe. Well with a little help from a hammer taken to the firewall.

    Around two weeks in, I received two invoices from Norwood, one for labor and one for parts. The parts invoice was negligible, about $100. On the labor invoice, I was charged again for preparing an estimate and for preparing a parts list. I thought we had taken care of that but apparently not. I was also charged for more labor prior to my giving him the go-ahead, to "unpack parts" and "clean parts", which I objected to but Norwood ignored my objections. I think these charges had to do with another car entirely but have never had an explanation from Bob. The "meet with Russ" charge was for another visit I made prior to the work commencing, when Norwood told me, in front of Big Red, that the project looked like I would be all in around $100K including the $50K I paid for the car, plus Norwood's $25K, plus the paint and interior work (which were to be done by others), so not to worry, I would not end up under water. Upon receipt of these invoices, I wired him another $10K to keep going even though we had not really discussed when payment would be due. It seems that payment is due when he invoices you. Fair enough, I complied, although that came back to bite me.

    I have attached the first 3 pages of the labor invoice (he continued to add to the invoice after the 4/19 date and that will be a future saga). From this I initially concluded that we are OK, about half the budget was gone and judging from the photos and looking at the car, about half the work was done. But on closer inspection, at $15K to date, he had not yet invoiced me anything significant for parts so if parts came in on budget, we would be at $27K and we knew that we were going to be over on parts as the estimate did not consider the need to buy a whole new rear suspension plus half shafts ... so two weeks in, we were looking at a $30K bill, ie $5K over estimate. And that assumed we could make the wheels work. If only ....
     

    Attached Files:

  16. PAUL500

    PAUL500 F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
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    Nothing is for nothing, typically non spannering elements on a job are covered by the overhead cost which is factored into the hourly rate charged, which is why the mechanic earns x amount per hour, but his time is charged out to the customer is x times 3 or 4.

    If a company only adds a small % of overhead to the mechanics base hourly cost then it has to be accrued in the bill somewhere else instead.

    How does Norwoods hourly charge out rate compare to his competitors? if its far less then many of the additional costs could be justified, if its similar then he is trying it on.
     
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  17. daytona355

    daytona355 F1 World Champ
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    You, my friend, are missing the overall point. Norwood markets himself, and allows others to do the same, as an expert in this kind of work.... yes or no?..... we know the answer, it’s yes. Russ took his business to him, and Norwood could have said ‘wow, big job, there’s a lot of new things to look at with this one, don’t worry, I can handle it but my estimate of x is just that, an estimate, bear in mind that as I’m making some assumptions based on previous similar work, there is the chance that this set up will be different, and I may even need to reassess how I do things on this car. Be prepared for x to rise, maybe even double blah blah blah’, and then was sure to give concise updates and progress reports along the way, and Russ was given access to the shop during that time should he wish to have a physical look.

    Then Russ has no case, the guy was honest, and explicit, and warned of the costs, and advised even he, the great expert on the conversions recognised this was a different case, and might cost more, certainly in research and planning terms if nothing else.

    Nope, the guy has simply decided Russ needs to fund his new shop/yacht/ferrari whatever, and billed accordingly. He has hidden the car and it’s parts (how on earth he can get away with this I don’t know, I’d have him hung upside down over a shark tank until he gave me the address, but that’s me) and is refusing the LEGAL OWNER sight of it, let alone possession. He won’t even allow the owner to nominate an independent specialist to visit the car and check on its condition..... as if Russ should be trusting what Norwood says about its condition at this time, while he demands a RANSOM. if this were a person, Norwood would be part of a news story that ended with ‘then the kidnapper, knowing the FBI had him cornered, turned the gun on himself to save himself from prison, while the invoices and correspondence burned in the corner’

    You shouldn’t be protecting Norwood in this case, as all that does is show that you are possibly of the same disposition as him, and I for one might think otherwise of following through if I came to be doing business with you.
     
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  18. ///Mike

    ///Mike F1 Veteran

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    I just get a kick out of the fact that whoever laid out Bob's invoice didn't know how to spell "mileage".
     
  19. Smiles

    Smiles F1 World Champ
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    How would you charge for it?

    Matt
     
  20. thorn

    thorn F1 Rookie
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    It completely depends on the situation. If the car could roll, then we're pushing it in the shop and there's no charge, as I'm charging for diag and I need in in the shop.

    If it was some odd situation (as appears with this car) - well, did i just lift the back up and put a dolly down there (an extra 2 mins), or did i have to rent a forklift? If it took unreasonable effort to to move, I'd inform the customer that the cost of diag will be increase. I would have stated as such when the car was dropped off.

    The forklift fee would be on the invoice, of course.
     
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  21. ATSAaron

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    I think that was the case until about September of 2017. Russ said he actually drove the car then.

    Chapter two will be interesting. The initial invoice does say it's a rough estimate and that it will change. The initial labor estimate does not mention brakes, door latches, or anything about the condition of the 355 motor that Russ provided. So how does it all fall apart? Is Norwood off on his labor estimates, or does the car or customer require more work than initially thought? Is Bob too low on his parts prices? Or are more parts required than originally thought?

    Aaron
     
  22. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    and how do you defend the part where Norwood has now hidden the car from the legal owner, refusing to release it unless paid a grossed up sum x times the estimate, as well as a full liability release signed?
     
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  23. ATSAaron

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    That part of Russ's story hasn't been posted yet. Like I said, chapter two will be interesting.

    Aaron
     
  24. Dave rocks

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