Not exactly. What I did say was that the 25th was the best-built Countach being that it came at the end of many years of development. Whilst I'll always agree that 'better' is obviously subjective, the indisputable fact is that Fuelie cars (both the QV & 25th) are in fact both slower & weaker. If you have read the period correspondence (to be published in future) between the factory and the USA transportation authority (EPA) you'll understand the Fuelie better. Basically, the factory also developed a Fuel-Injected engine specifically to allow the Countach to be revised to meet USA EPA emissions mandates, approved to allow Lamborghini to distribute cars to North America and keep their USA market share, accordingly all Countach QV sold to the USA from 1985 to 1990 had fuel-injection engines. The factory's position was that the Fuel-Injected engine was the emissions engine, whilst the Carbureted engine was the performance engine. You could take the position that the Fuelie Countach is better than the Downdraft at one thing - being the USA emissions engine, which is what it was designed for. The factory continued to use the Carbureted engine in the Countach QV for Europe and the Rest-of-the World, through to the very last 25th it built in 1990, which it retained in it’s Museo. I've posted this before so I apologize for being redundant but clearly it's worth repeating: the Fuelie engine's less potent specification is all about emissions. The lower compression ratio produces lower peak cylinder pressures to reduce NOX emissions. The cams have less overlap to prevent the exhaust from over-scavenging the cylinder at the end of the exhaust stroke to reduce hydrocarbon emissions. Milder cams in general make it easier to minimize carbon monoxide and hydrocarbon emissions. Fuel injection can be manipulated more easily than carbs with a view to improving emissions. The tradeoff is that the Fuelie cars with lower compression pistons generate lower torque ratings and therefore have a lower power output, which underscores the point I made earlier. In a sea of opinions, a solidly indisputable cast-iron fact.
I agree with this and obviously Downdraft owners are starting to come over here because to the two Fuelie owners who go over to the Downdraft thread and basically troll (I use that word with careful consideration). I also agree that if Fuelie owners wish Downdraft owners to remain in the Downdraft thread all they have to do is extend similar courtesy and we'd be happy to oblige. Meanwhile I note that discussions are more civil and useful material is actually being shared either way.
There's a happy medium to be had here, based purely on facts. The DD configuration isn't only unique to the QV, but the L 507 IS the only DD Carb 4 Valve V12 & the DD QV was the first car to employ it. It's the most powerful Countach motor, with the rowdiest character, in the most iconic car ever made. To say the DD is special isn't to say that other Countach variants aren't as well, they all have that brute personality. Also, there are not "100s of thousands" of FI V12 engines with 4 valves..... All Lamborghini engines are special, there were "plenty" of 2 valve V12s as well, but not with dual overhead cams. Lamborghini's employment of Giotto Bizzarrini is legendary in and of itself, his racing DNA and architecture is present in all of these motors, making them all extremely special to an extent. As it stands, the USA QV is one of only two pre ANNI variants to feature the big 5167cc motor, with 4 valves to boot. It's comfortably the second most powerful Countach in stock form (even when strangled by DOT equipment), which was enough to make it the fastest car legally attainable in the USA in 1986. It was also Lamborghini's first official fuel injected motor & they used it as a direct platform for the Diablo, plenum layout and all. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Couldn't agree more, our QV has existed in its intended form since it was almost brand new. The rear cover was present in 93 but the body work had long since been dealt with. There were plenty of Countachs to be had along the way, good and bad, but ultimately there was no going back from the muscular feel of the 4 Valve. As you can see from our Range Rover Classic and Volvo Wagon, triple white was perfect Image Unavailable, Please Login
The one with emissions makes more power because I modded it with a ECU tune and higher boost. Mods are fine right? You're only arguing that if you mod one and not the other, which is apples to oranges. Compare them as per factory spec.
Yeah - that's my impression too. What I'm trying to weigh up is will prices "double across the board" making the DD a $1m car and the FI a $500k car, or will they "increase evenly across the board" making the D a $1m car and the FI a $750k car - I wish I had that crystal ball. This purchase is my "play money" from the sale of the company - I'm investing the serious money with money managers, and this is my play investment - but still not one I want to get wrong. Hence I'm not buying an Aventador - pretty much guaranteed to lose money unless you don't use it, in which case a poster is cheaper. Completely agree regarding the bumpers (unless you pick up a Canadian FI which never had them) as they are hideous and unsightly. I'm even put off by the standard bumpers on the 25th Anniversary model - just isn't the poster I grew up drooling over. Which to my dismay I just found out was a 5000 S, not a QV, and shattered my reality.
Also, there are not "100s of thousands" of FI V12 engines with 4 valves..... BMW, Mercedes Benz, Ferrari, Lamborghini and Aston Martin collectively have certainly made a six figure number of 4V injected V-12s. I would also like to say that ALL Countach are special and iconic cars. Bring any variant to any car gathering, and it will be a star.
Ironically, this is also an apples to oranges comparison. Once again, there's usually a middle ground between two trains of thought. Your F80's ECU has been flashed, which is not something that would make it identical to its European sister car. Completely different reasoning, the two cars would now be even more different than they were initially. Allan is talking about fitting both cars with the factory exhaust that Lamborghini supplied to most ROW QVs. There're some DDs that were originally equipped with restrictive features for the sole purpose of gaining entrance to certain markets. Many of these cars have since been equipped with factory parts that are correct to the model, but not "original" in the strictest sense of the word. How many F40's and TR's were originally equipped with cats only to have binned them? USA Maserati 430, Sypder, & 228 models were also fitted with cats. Would it be unfair to race a decatted 430 against a ROW model 430? No it wouldn't, not even a tiny bit. You certainly wouldn't reason that the ROW should have its boost turned up because the USA car shed its cats I hope this doesn't sound like I'm singling you out, because we are in agreement to a certain extent. Equipping a USA car with ROW exhaust isn't "original" but that doesn't mean that a comparison is unfair. Modify both with aftermarket exhaust, it's the same principle, the result would be the same.
Oh yeah - I get it. I just don't agree with the fixation on "if I modified my car and you didn't touch yours, they would be the same". Either don't mod either car, or mod both cars. Yes - I know the ECU in my car is different from the EU version, as are many other parts, but really zero care from me - it's fast enough already for me to get arrested and probably deported back home. I'm only interested in comparing a stock car to a stock car, or 2 similarly modified cars to each other - anything else is just changing the playing field to create an advantage and limiting the playing field to your primary disadvantage. Why not go whole hog - allow modification to the exhaust, cams, carbs or FI system, as well as the air intake? Really see what each engine can do, not just seeing what one can do when it's changed while keeping another one stock?
Most want to compare a fi with the same exhaust as the dd, maybe the 100 pounds weight reduction of the US bumpers (that a euro car would have) & that is about it. I really don't see anyone wanting to go down the rabbit's hole and heavily modify the engine vs a stock dd. FWIW this is a cutaway of the US exhaust manifold. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Why compare though? Why not put on the headers and exhaust, remove the warts and crap from the exterior, and go enjoy driving it? I just don't get this desire to prove one is better than the other. Carbs and FI will never be the same. Just like my straight 6 turbo will never be the same as the old V8 one - despite having more power and being the quicker car. Just enjoy what you have and if you don't enjoy it, get something else. I've heard of people selling their F80 to back to an E90 - and likewise I've heard people happy to be rid of their E90 and in an F80. Proving one is "better" than the other is pointless.
When I shopped for a Countach, I found some of the impressions here on the forum a tad misleading. Once you drive a few and see them in person, you might think very differently than you think now. I looked in person at every Countach that was available in the entire USA when I was shopping, and saw one that was "off market but available" as well. I concluded that carbs vs. FI really doesn't matter much to me. I know the carbs are a smidge faster and a bit more maintenance, but I didn't care about an extra 20hp and I don't care about some additional maintenance. I figure these cars are all a huge amount of maintenance and that's what you're signing up for. The big bumper thing was a downer for sure, and I don't like how those look. But I would not rule a car out for that cause it's not that big of a deal to change them. What's an extra 10K here or there? If ya like the car but ya don't like the bumpers, just change them. It's not hard to do. What did sway me was 2 things- the big bumps in the engine hood (I don't like those, I prefer the flat one and I prefer to see out of my back window). So I ruled out the FI QV, DD QV, and anniversary. The second thing was the ground clearance....I'd like to be able to clear a speed bump, so this ruled out the low body. The remaining choices are S3 or LP 5000S. I bought a LP 5000S and have had it many years. I'm very happy with it. So I guess what I'm saying here is don't drink too much of the kool aid on internet forums, go see these cars yourself, in person, before you decide what floats your boat. If you're buying to drive it, and you like driving fast, maybe the DD is the one for you. If you're buying it to look at it, perhaps the low body would be the way to go. If you're driving in a big city, like me, you're gonna want that flat engine hood and some ground clearance. Guys on forums get really obsessed with carbs and FI, but you gotta decide if that really matters to YOU, not other people. If you really want the poster car, clearly the LP 5000S is the way to go. Who knows, you might even track down that exact car from your poster.
Agree 100%. Generally the impressions I've got from here are that they're amazing cars, and a few people have an axe to grind for some reason. Like yourself, those extra 20hp don't mean a lot to me - I have no desire to track the car, and I like my license too much to use the full power on the public roads. At the same time, I wouldn't turn my nose up at the extra 20hp either. Despite having been handy with mechanical work in the past (have replaced clutches, gearboxes, drum brake pads, suspension bushings and water pumps before) I think syncing 6 downdraft Webers is outside my skillset also. I've designed an optical distributor to replace the old points in a vehicle I had, and had a 1000cc 4 cylinder engine idling smoothly at 600rpm, but I don't think I'll be hacking the ignition system on a Countach. I'm still open to the QV variants, the 5000S and the S3, but the Anniversary is out, as are the low body models. I'm not so much planning to drive it in town, but I live in Texas and our roads aren't exactly pool tables. I would have been wary of removing the bumpers personally, but as you say what's 10K to make it what you want if it's the right car? But I think my chances of finding that 5000 S that had the CD Car-Design side fenders is slim to none, although I have seen a link to one sold just like it - in bad need of restoration.
If you do consider a Lowbody , I can promise you that you can do much more than look at it. The driving experience is incredible . The looks ? The best. The feel? The best. And the 4 liter is one heck of a motor.
I think ElvisNasty does make a great point. If you’re not in a rush , check out everything that’s available and sample as many models as you can . You have jumped in at a time where the DD vs. FI topic is hot . Check them all out . Each model has a special unique driving experience(well sorted) and look in person. Good luck !
No, Im arguing that in USA, when they were new, an emission-less DD was illegal. So if you are in the U.S. and you take a F/I car and remove the emissions to match the configuration of the DD, things change. If you'd like, you can strap emissions on the DD and see how well it does.
It’s hard to say about which will appreciate more. One possibility is As more FI car have the bumpers corrected these cars will loose their negative stigma and the values will increase dramatically. This is very attractive if you have 250-300. Because my guess is these will be 1M cars if they have the look returned (which every one will just like MacF1s). So I can see values tightening so that if a FI car is worth 1M, then a DD may be worth 1.5M. In the other hand, once you get really expensive then collectors want the “best” and so certain attributes, even small ones command a huge premium. This is true even with small differences, in attributes. I think the DD will always be a collective favorite. (Like the LP400 and low body. -the lp400/lowbody and DD have been and always will be first tier) so if FI cars go for 1M a DD can be 2M. But even if they stay at the same spread (2 to one) then from an investment it doesn’t matter. My betting odds are this: The FI will appreciate more relative to the DD so the DD is worth less of a premium. True the performance isn’t double, and there are pros to the FI engine. Yes the DD is more desirable in the market. But put two side by side. With bumpers corrected. The DD isn’t twice the car. More valuable of course. Question is what the market will say. What I think is the market perception changes big time once the hideous bumpers are a distant memory, and there are no low auction prices of non corrected cars dragging prices down. Then they will stop the low prices and these cars will bounce. And most people think it’s a matter of time before every round body corrected bumper car is north of 1M. Bottom line, prices on FI cars are super low. But they will not stay that way. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
This I will agree to! Keep your DD, keep your F/I... What I should of bought was a lowbody. Inmo, the best of the Countach series.
I guess my only concern is that even though correcting the bumpers improves the look dramatically - it's no longer original, and high dollar collectors often want original. Whether it's seen in the same light as say installing Willwood brakes I don't know. At least with brakes (or exhaust/headers) it's all reversible if you retain the original pieces. But I think also, that no collector is going to fall in love with the US DoT appendages so that might be a moot point.
The argument has never been that the DD is inferior or not special. It has never been that the U.S. cars bumpers don't look terrible. The argument has always been that by having both motors in similar emission-less configurations the power they both make is very similar. Remove the U.S. bumpers and you achieve the same Euro look. Most here, other than Joe Sackey (he'd agree when he had a F/I in the Anniversary thread but now has amnesia) would agree that in 90% of all instances the Fuel injected car requires less fettling.
The quintessential look for the Countach. Seeing them side by side, the Lowbody just looks far more menacing and sinister . Almost makes the other look like a 4x4.
