Miura, the original supercar | Page 663 | FerrariChat

Miura, the original supercar

Discussion in 'LamborghiniChat.com' started by joe sackey, Dec 5, 2006.

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  1. PineChris

    PineChris Formula 3

    Apr 17, 2013
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    Confused as to why I asked Joe a question about BoB Wallace lending him pictures for his book, and my question was deleted ?
     
  2. Really it is off topic about how someone collected & wrote a book. I'm trying to tie it in as to why it should even be discussed.
     
  3. hyenahf

    hyenahf F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2004
    2,603
    bob was really pissed off that he loaned many of his personal photos of factory and cars for a book and it was never returned to him. please note i am not insinuating one iota that it was joe. I dont recall who it was.... it was years ago.
     
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  4. Boomhauer

    Boomhauer Formula Junior

    Aug 18, 2007
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    Cardinal
  5. LC3929

    LC3929 Formula Junior

    Dec 16, 2007
    786
  6. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    8,987
    There was also another long-time historian in the USA who passed away 2 years ago and was notoriously known for not returning photos, documents that he got loaned for his various publications in the 1970/80s.
     
  7. PineChris

    PineChris Formula 3

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    Crazy! That means that one is still alive!
     
  8. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

    May 23, 2006
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    #16558 joe sackey, Jul 11, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
    Coppet, Switzerland, at a Swiss Concours D'Elegance the weekend before last

    Bobby Wallace never lent me a single image for my Miura book http://joesackeyclassics.com/authored-books/the-lamborghini-miura-bible/ , and I didn't even ask!

    The historical images for the Miura book came from a variety of paid-for-copyright or written permission explicitly granted sources as documented in my files:

    - Peter Sach's Klemantaski Collection (the famed Peter Coltrin black-and-white factory images)
    - The Karl Ludvigsen Library (more black-and-white factory images)
    - The Spitzley's Foto Zagari collection (both black-and-white and color factory images including the only known image of Bobby Wallace and the Jota together!)
    - Richard Baron & John Lamm's Road & Track photo archives
    - Rainer Schlegelmilch photography archives
    - LAT Photographic archives
    - Sutton Motorsport images
    - Bertone SpA archives (glad I did when I could!)
    - Peter Vann archives (the famed images of Ferruccio with his SV at his winery)
    - Bob Estes archives
    - Conde Nast/Corbis archives (image of Miles Davis sitting on his Miura, for example, copyright permission for use in the book for that single black-and-white image alone cost $204.56, with hundreds of images it adds up)
    - George Lepp & Associates archives (the famed Car & Driver images of the Sanders family P400 being tested at speed in the Nevada desert, a car they still own, George had long left association with C& D magazine but like many others I tracked him down and found him in a little town called Los Osos California! He gave me 4 great images, we used 2)
    - Motor Presse International (a series of images from Motor Klassik magazine of the famed SVJ 4860, 283 Euros, and that was back in the days when Euros were worth something!)

    The contemporary images for the Miura book came from a variety of donated photographer sources:

    - My wife
    - Myself (I used to be an avid photographer over many years, but then my wife became much better than me, and now my sons are even better, so I'm out of the photo business, in fact nobody in my family will let me hold a camera any more! Thank goodness the book was published when it was or there'd be none of my images in it)
    - Past & current Miura owners (many owners were only too happy to send me past & present images, all of which the publisher was provided with a return address for use after scanning)

    Sourcing the images & illustrations was a 10-year operation. What a trip it was scouring though the book's file this evening, I am proud of this book and glad we published it, for those who don't know, over the past 11 years its been in existence it's sold out several printings and was Internationally published in German & French as well as English. In summation, if Wallace ever lent someone someone his precious images for a book, it wasn't to me, and, if they were Miura-related, it looks like whomever it was didn't do much with them!

    Quite frankly, I'm surprised he of all people would be upset about any images, and, if he indeed even had any to give out, perhaps he was glad to get rid of them as I have never met a more unsentimental person in my life, as anyone who has ever really met him might agree! This is a man who wouldn't use 3 words where 2 would do. Besides the images on his wall at the Phoenix workshop, I'm truly surprised he possessed a single one of the factory days, there are other historians besides myself who have visited with him over the past few decades of his life, and I have never heard the story of the missing images.

    Anyway, I dealt with Bobby on a business basis @ 18 years ago in the summer of 2000, I took him the engine of one of my ex-Shah of Persia Miura SV to rebuild. He did the job over the course of a few months and invoiced me, all pretty straightforward and uneventful. I don't remember what he charged me but I do remember the searing heat in Phoenix! Although I would never refer to him as a friend (I never saw him smile once the whole time over my 3-4 visits), by the end of the project he had opened up sufficiently enough to tell me a few brief stories about the Sant Agata days, although I must confess getting them out was like pulling proverbial teeth. Stories such as the time he rode as passenger with F1 pilot Jean-Pierre Beltoise's Miura P400 at very high speed in the wet, JP crashed the car badly and Bobby ended up in the hospital with a broken hip, he said the testing of the cars back in the day was "not for sissies", I put that story in my book.

    FWIW I just checked and the Miura book appears to be going up in value on Ebay. Yikes!
     
  9. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

    May 23, 2006
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    I do believe from Frankfurt you could also get Alitalia to JFK New York as P400 3414 did, correct?

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  10. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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  11. PineChris

    PineChris Formula 3

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    Can you blame him, I wouldnt smile if you came over either. Your story however, differs from his.
     
  12. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    Sure thing, sorry, no story.

    Meanwhile, whereas Vale, Claudio et al are always smiling and lighthearted, Bobby simply was universally renowned as the opposite, he never smiled at all, in fact how many images from all of history can you produce showing Wallace smiling?

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  13. LC3929

    LC3929 Formula Junior

    Dec 16, 2007
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    Thank you.
     
  14. hyenahf

    hyenahf F1 Rookie

    May 25, 2004
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    lol , he wasnt that grumpy... i suppose it depends on who you are :) he was a straight shooter of course.
     
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  15. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer F1 Veteran
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    Mar 4, 2005
    8,987
    Not sure about that. They could not use the stairs that beongs to the particular Airline. Why? Simply too many Airlines....
    So this AlItalia stairs might have been used for a fright carrier from LH that just uploads the Miura.
     
  16. PineChris

    PineChris Formula 3

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    I guess Bob Wallace was a liar.
     
  17. P300V8

    P300V8 Formula 3

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    +1 and since when did AlItalia have red white and blue livery?
     
  18. em42

    em42 Formula 3

    Mar 30, 2008
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  19. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    Good points, more likely American Airlines or United Air Lines, perhaps the latter as Lamborghini used them in the period to ship Miuras to the USA

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  20. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    #16570 joe sackey, Jul 12, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
    If you say so, that would be your own conclusion, its also possible he or someone relaying this story is incorrect.

    Four things to consider.

    Firstly, it makes no sense that he would give me images and I would proceed to not use them, the source list above covers the scope of every single image in my book, each one of hundreds cataloged & accounted for, none of them being from Bobby Wallace.

    Secondly, if Wallace gave me images, I would have been proud to include them in my book with the associated credit, but then I would simply have returned them post-publication as we did dozens of others, it's really not that hard. The fact is, I never asked him for images because when I met him I was only concerned about my Miura SV engine rebuild.

    Thirdly, it's entirely possible he gave images to someone else, and the link to my name from Bobby or another person reporting this story is in error.

    Fourth, it’s both convenient & interesting that the man you vaguely suggest lent me some images is no longer alive to vouch for your story, which seems rather fuzzy & weak, assuming you were first-hand with Wallace, inquiring minds wish more specific details:

    When exactly did you visit with Wallace?
    What exactly did he say to you about his missing images?
    Were the images he gave out Miura images or of other cars?
    How many images did he give out?
    Did he mention to you the names of the person/s he gave images out to?

    Interesting that nobody seems to remember any specific details!

    Did he tell you personally that he was pissed off about his personal photos not being returned, or did you hear that from someone else?

    Can you produce any images of the man ever smiling?

    No denying he was a straight-shooter, but he was grumpy, and I’m not talking about in his old age, I’m talking about from day one, from the youthful factory days in the 60s & 70s, that’s simply the way he always was.

    I dealt with him personally in Phoenix for the complete rebuild of my engine over a period of several months, and in contrast to 2 other ex-Factory men I have had many dealings with, Bob was borderline miserable, zero sense of humor - he built the engine well though, and that's what mattered.

    None of this disparages Bobby’s memory one Iota (see what I did there?) or takes away from his work and what he accomplished for Lamborghini, it’s simply an accurate recollection of how Bobby chose to be, he chose to wear a scowl rather than a smile. Take a look at some of these images http://www.madmechanics.com/forum/general-kitcar-chat/18041-bob-wallace-lamborghini-passes-away.html

    Giancarlo Barbieri, another straight-shooter, who worked side-by-side with Bob at Sant Agata in the 60s & 70s, also knew Bob very well, here is what he said about Bob on-the-record, captions below from Davide Cironi's film

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  21. P300V8

    P300V8 Formula 3

    Mar 8, 2010
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    Grumpy or not Bob was a hero. His roundabout is located a short distance from the factory and the small band of enthusiasts that visit Sant'Agata regularly always complete a couple of 'laps' on as few wheels as possible to say 'hello' to Bob. I would encourage you to do the same...
     
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  22. ppnlf

    ppnlf Karting

    Jan 12, 2007
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    For what it’s worth, I certainly remember Bob smiling on numerous occasions. He had his difficulties in the hand of cards that life dealt him but despite these he was a cheerful yet professional guy who didn’t tolerate the many time-wasters who came knocking on his door. And he is missed.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  23. P300V8

    P300V8 Formula 3

    Mar 8, 2010
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    +1 How come he became such a good friend to Stanzani?
     
  24. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    Agreed, as I said, and I quote myself: "None of this disparages Bobby’s memory one Iota or takes away from his work and what he accomplished for Lamborghini, it’s simply an accurate recollection of how Bobby chose to be".

    That is for sure.
     
  25. PineChris

    PineChris Formula 3

    Apr 17, 2013
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    Oh Poor Joe.... Ive had homes in Scottsdale for 20 years, and had many dealings with Bob. The fact that you try to assert that he was a miserable man tells the world all we need to know. As for how he told his story, it couldn't have been more accurately described. But what the heck, everyone is a liar, and Joe Sackey is Mother Teresa .
     

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