Miura, the original supercar | Page 667 | FerrariChat

Miura, the original supercar

Discussion in 'LamborghiniChat.com' started by joe sackey, Dec 5, 2006.

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  1. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    #16651 joe sackey, Aug 1, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2018
    SV 4884 when we owned it a decade ago, we rescued this Miura from Elvis Presley's hometown of Tupelo Mississippi, brought it back to California, and restored this one particularly well

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  2. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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  3. mt_jt

    mt_jt Formula Junior

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    A quick Google search shows this car was delivered red, but later repainted white? I’ve always been curious as to whether (m)any P400S cars had wheels and lower trim parts painted gold at the factory.
     
  4. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    It went from red to white and back to red when restored circa 2002.

    Anything is possible, but generally, earlier cars had silver wheels & sills, and SVs had the option of gold or silver.
     
  5. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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  6. Mr Mezzanotte

    Mr Mezzanotte Formula Junior

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  7. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    Thanks.

    We are looking for history from the time it was new onwards, specifically in the 1970s.
     
  8. johnhoughtaling

    johnhoughtaling Formula 3

    Nov 6, 2002
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    #16658 johnhoughtaling, Aug 4, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
    Yes.

    Another reason for the second restoration was a bit unplanned. I was trying to impress this supermodel from Miami, (not Farrah (joe you have a good memory!) in the picture. I invited her to my home in New Orleans and we decided to take a spontaneous drive to the beach. My beach house is in Seaside Florida which is about a 5 hour, but really cool drive. I was pulling out all the stops so I decided to take the best car in my collection at the time which was 4870. I pull it out, and she says “wow nice car!”. I knew it was the right decision!

    Half way through the drive the heavens open up and it pours down rain for hours. Then as we get towards the beach I can hear the wet sand blasting the entire underside of of what was a perfect 100 point restoration. Of course I’m all smiles to the girl and say nothing, but I’ll suck up the cost of a restoration when I return, and if she’s impressed it’s worth it. This girl was one of the top models at the time and I figured I need to pull out all the stops.

    Well we get to the beach house. She gets out of the car, looks back at it and me and says “I have to say, that’s the coolest Camaro I’ve ever been in”

    After the trip I sent it back to Bobileff and we carefully restored it again.

    This car had incredible adventures before my ownership no doubt, but during my many years with her, I added more than a few!


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  9. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    Expensive ride ha. Not very resilient Bobileffff restorations are they? I'd have been more worried about the engine ingesting sand through the non standard gauze air filters. Did you re-fit the standard air filters? Presumably 4870 still retains some of the non standard mods done on the previous restoration such as the split sump?
     
  10. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    Great story John!

    I won't comment on the Bobileff restorations, however, that aside, you really do want to split the sump if you have the engine all apart for a rebuild with any Miura from P400 to SV. The upgrade cannot be seen, and you'll never know unless the owner tells you. If you actually drive a Miura a lot, this is an upgrade that is "essential", as Bobby Wallace would say, and in fact, it was none other than Wallace who personally split the sump of Miura SV 4870.
     
  11. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    #16661 joe sackey, Aug 4, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
    Steven,

    The use of velocity stacks or trumpets on Miuras is quite common in recent times:

    If you have done a lot of Miura driving in different conditions over the years, it will become the received wisdom that it is good to remove the air-filter housings for a number of reasons.

    1. Running the car on trumpets improves the throttle response as the air gets to the carburetors more directly, this no different than the application on an old vintage racing Ferrari, for example.

    2. Running the car on trumpets can limit the incidence of a fire taking hold, as discussed several times previously in this thread, the air-filters within the air-filter housings can serve as an excellent source of combustion for a fire and by the time the driver realizes it, you've got a real problem. Eliminating the housings and therefore the filters not only reduces the chances of a fire, but it means the driver can see the carburetors and monitor what's going on.

    3. Many people think the engine bay looks a lot more sporting without the air-filer housings with the trumpets sitting proudly atop the carburetors.

    Naturally, the common-sense proviso of course would be that you run trumpets because you know you are not driving the Miura on dusty or sandy roads, which most people nowadays would not do anyway.

    All that said, anyone running trumpets on a Miura can quickly reverse this by reinstalling the air-filter housings if they know they are taking a trip that will involve dusty or sandy roads - which I did several times - so the air-filter or trumpets application can be alternated quite easily.

    Ferruccio Lamborghini ran his Miura SV 5028 sans air-filters surely for the aforementioned reasons

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  12. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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  13. geno berns

    geno berns F1 Rookie

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    The things we secrifice for long legs. Great story
     
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  14. johnhoughtaling

    johnhoughtaling Formula 3

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    #16664 johnhoughtaling, Aug 4, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
    Correct on all accounts. Every Muira I’ve had have had trumpets. The compartment is actually pretty protected from debris. Better than most TRs that raced at LeMans! Everything that Joe said about them is right on. Besides, there is no more beautiful sight in all automodum!

    As for the quality of the Bobileff restoration, this was 15 years ago. Back then, Gary was on the top of his game and the car was fantastic.

    As for any modifications (ie split sump), the Muira community/market is pretty solid that there are certain improvements that are necessary during restoration. At least anyone that does anything other than let it sit in a museum.

    Couple more things about 4870

    The white and blue livery was one the Shah copied many times (my research concluded, like Sackey, that this dark blue/white could have been inspired by Farah’s royal coronation robe.). My Glickenhaus 004, (the design of which was inspired by Jim’s admiration of 4870, ) will be Blue Notte/White.

    My biggest mistake with cars was selling 4870. Simon Kidston caught me with a world record price for a Lamborghini (double the then value of an SV) and I did it. (I always wanted a lime green one-so I let it go). I didn’t need the money at the time, and it was a mistake. I immediately got my green Muira and blew the balance on racing Ferrari Challenge cars. Now I regret it. Unfortunately it’s in a collection on Bahrain and will not likely be on the market again in my lifetime, [emoji20]

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  15. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    I say never regret anything, we are all custodians of these cars for for a period shorter or longer, and personally I find it very satisfying passing these cars into some of the amazing homes they go to. Then we get to try something different and further enrich life's experience.

    I don't think KAR will ever sell anything in his lifetime, but, my experience from being involved with sportscars for 30 years has taught me that any car can come back to the market for innumerable reasons, you just never know.

    Meanwhile SV 4870 is in a great home which includes everything Supercar from McLaren F1, Ferraris 288 GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/La Ferrari, Porsches 2.7 RS/959/CGT/918, and too many other cars for me to list, here it is below with some of the Lamborghinis

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  16. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    #16666 miurasv, Aug 5, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2018
    Agreed that the split sump is a worthwhile mod. Do you know what solution is used to split the sump on a single sump Miura? Is it the same as the Lamborghini factory used on the split sump cars? Do the factory cars have separate external castings?

    Now regarding the use of trumpets that's a completely different matter. Road cars like a Miura use air filters for very good reason. If they weren't needed on a Miura they wouldn't have been built with them. That Ferruccio Lamborghini is pictured with his SV without air filters proves nothing. He may have been just balancing the carbs for example. He is also pictured with his SV with air filters. GTOs and TRs are racing/competition cars and get rebuilt more often than road cars but even these engines would last longer with filters installed but throttle response may suffer slightly and cost time in a race not needed on a road car like a Miura. There is a lot of debris on roads that don't need to be dusty/sandy that will get sucked in the engine causing damage/wear to the valves/guides, cylinder bores, pistons and the carbs themselves. Also debris can mix with the oil and damage bearings at the top and bottom ends. You can't just remove the air filters and put them back on when it's dusty/sandy or whatever. Removing them very likely will make the air petrol mixture leaner which would necessitate adjustment of the mixture to prevent engine damage by running too lean a mixture so it's not just an easy case of taking the filters off and putting them back on. Removing the air filters is not respecting the engine. I think the filters look great too.

    John, I think you should buy another SV. Simon Kidston has a very nice orange one atm. I'm sure he'd do you a great deal. See here: http://www.kidston.com/kidston-cars/1846/1971-Lamborghini-Miura-P400-SV





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  17. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    BTW I spoke to Simon about his beautifully restored 4854 for a client of mine, but they wanted the equivalent of @ $3,500,000 and my client wasn't willing to go that high.

    Splitting the sump for 4870 was done by Wallace by upgrading the block with sump separation to achieve the same configuration he oversaw when the cars were being built at the factory. I have no idea how other specialists such as, say, Colin Clarke in the UK do it, as that was the only occasion I have been involved in this upgrade. FWIW, a sump split upgrade performed by none other than Bob Wallace himself is a point in any Miura's favor.

    Indeed the air filters serve a good purpose, and debris can be an issue if you drive without them at length on dusty roads, that said, if you typically drive on clean roads, it's really not an issue. I also agree the image of Ferruccio proves nothing, but, I do know 5028, as with many other Miuras, has been run without filters from time-to-time. I really do not think removing the filters will mean catastrophic failure, if you are responsible and drive the car on roads without debris as most roads exist today.

    At this point, I'm aware of several dozen Miuras at least that run without air-filters, and I don't think you can generalize that removing the filters means you are disrespecting the engine in all cases.

    I like the look of filters on too, and on 3 of our SVs in fact they were never removed over the years.

    Yes, you can easily put the filters on & taken them off if you know what you're doing, it takes minutes, we've done it a number of times with different SVs, leaning or enriching the air-fuel mixture of the 40 IDL Webers is fairly straightforward and also takes just minutes with the filters off. Here below is Claudio Zampolli doing exactly that on our 4884. He worked on the entire Miura production @ Sant Agata from 1967 to 1973, so he knows a thing or two about Miuras and I used him to tune our car. He didn't think there was any issue with running the car without filters at all, especially because in addition to the domed mesh screen atop the trumpets to keep out the big stuff, we also installed a fine-gauge screen at the bottom of the trumpets to act as a filter for the small particles. It worked quite well

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  18. geno berns

    geno berns F1 Rookie

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    Joe based on the asking price of Simon’s car and another in EU I heard about with a $3.5MM price, what do you think the SV that will be auctioned this month by RM might bring? Estimate is $2.2-2.4MM. It’s an older restoration.
     
  19. joe sackey

    joe sackey Five Time F1 World Champ

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    Lets wait-and-see.

    4854 and 4920 are two very different cars, the latter was actually partially restored years ago and not to the standard 4854 currently exists in, that said I think those $3.5m numbers are a bit too high, and I expect 4920 to bring the upper end of it's estimate.
     
  20. geno berns

    geno berns F1 Rookie

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    Agreed
     
  21. xs10shl

    xs10shl Formula 3

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    Its been my experience that many Miuras tend to do rather poorly at auction when compared to private sales. Can't really say why that is on nice auction examples. Perhaps it's just a car that worries buyers more than other marques.
     
  22. xs10shl

    xs10shl Formula 3

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    Count me in the minority, but I personally don't think splitting the sump is as important given the way most people use their cars, even though I did do it once on a car in order to add an LSD in it. Higher on the list for me would be the Wallace mod for non-SV suspension, chassis bracing where needed, and a lubrication pipe for the transfer gears. All visible upgrades, but all fix some pretty basic flaws in the original design.
     
  23. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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  24. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    Ferruccio's SV #5028.

    I see from Kidston's www.miuraregister.com that Ferruccio acquired SV 5028 as a used car towards the end of 1974. Were the eye lashes fitted by him or were they ordered by the first owner when the car was new? The previous owner to Ferruccio is very surprising too!!!!
     

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