Replacement thermostat housings - Warning

This photo clearly shows the top of the pump chamber is airlocked because of no vent hole. Note the waterline !!!

pump performance was severely impaired as a result.


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Testing thermostats this morning and comparing items on the market sold as parts for the 246.

Wahler and Behr Thermot seem to be the popular thermostats on offer, although they look identical there is one important difference in the aperture when open.

The Wahler thermostat is far superior and allows full flow through the stat at 17.35cm3 free area and the Behr at 11.68cm3, a big difference.
Both open up to 44mm when fully open in the test tank so more than capable of shutting the bypass off effectively. All open at 82C.

Not able to identify part number I am afraid as they don't have any stamp marks on them!!

No joy from either company to help out either which is poor in my opinion.

New (modified) water pump works very well with increased flow through the radiators and no overheating issues, engine runs at 83 C and fans kick in as they should.

 

Thanks for taking note of this Tony.
I took a look at the replacement water pumps from maserati spares which were on ebay (I bought a few some years ago). These don’t have the air bleed hold either. The original pump from my L-series has the hole.
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Thanks Andrew, none of the new pumps have the vent hole although I understand from Stefan at dino parts in Germany that they do have them. Its simple to drill your own.

Thermostat Saga -

Wahler have responded but unable to help indentify the stat I have, Behr Thermot haven't replied and all the others say they cannot help "as it isn't in their parts book" very unhelpful at best.
Hella seem to be a little bit more upbeat about helping match one of their units to the housing so waiting for a call back, incidentally the South African office responded, the UK office are still to wake up!!
Tony

 

There is also a vent hole in my L-series pump casting. But I most admit it looks very much like it is blocked by debris. Another thing to check this winter. This thread is great!

Best Peter

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Hi Tony,
Do you have a source for the Wahler thermostat? Part number?
Thank you.
Regards, Alberto

 

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Hi Alberto +anyone else that's mildly interested

The problem is that Wahler (and all the others makes) are loathe to recommend a thermostat as it doesn't fall into their parts portfolio. The fiat part 4222883 (also the Ferrari part no) is only recognised as fitting the Fiat x1/9 plus a few others vehicles, not the Dino 246. So as you can imagine they will not commit.

This is their (whaler) reply

“I have a doubt to use the PN 4033.82D as the lower disk dimension is not exactly the same dimension. Regarding the Bypass. I don’t have information. For this case I would say we don’t have a part in our range”

From the two drawing (RHS) Fiat, LHS Wahler, the two are virtually identical and it is a very close match to the Wahler 4033.82 as can be seen from the details they sent over, it also has the large orifice opening similar to the original Savara unit.

I have the 4033 in my car and it works fine. Both are rated at 82C which is prefect for the 246 operating temp range of 82-84C

The full travel was my concern and measuring the housing the distance from the flange to bypass port is 39mm, as can be seen from the photo below, the Wahller unit travels 45mm approx. This gives around 6mm of closure onto the port which should be more than adequate to form a good seal.






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Thank you Tony, but where do you obtain it,
and, does it use a rubber ring around it?

Regards, Alberto

 

Alberto, In short I don't know where you would get the Wahler thermostat from in the US, its bad enough trying to locate one here!!

The Stant 13378 looks like a suitable match, its listed as equivalent to the fiat 4222883 but please check the dimensions & temperature rating as Stant wouldn't give me any tech specifications on it. This part is made in the US so hopefully you should be able to source it from a good parts distributor.

The thermostat would sit in a rubber ring as this would form a seal on the 56mm flange, don't be tempted to buy a stat of the 54mm range, it doesn't work. a gasket is required on the thermostat to nose flange as well.

The primary disc should just be a metal disc, some have rubber covers over them but I don't think it was fitted to the original savara unit, it also restricts the flow through the bypass port too.

 

Tony, found this:

https://www.amazon.com/Stant-13378-Thermostat-Degrees-Fahrenheit/dp/B000C7YQJ2
and:
https://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/stant,13378,thermostat,2200
or:
https://www.partsplus.com/catalog-2/itemdetail/stant/13378

All dimensions are in inches, have not made the conversion, will do later.
Stant is an excellent product, have used them on Alfa all the time and never an issue.

Regards, Alberto

 

2.125" = 53.98mm although Stant suggest this as a direct replacement for the Fiat 4222883?
From my experience on my 308, that 2mm makes a difference to how it fits in the recess, perhaps their gasket is bigger to compensate?

The internal flange dimension on my housing per the my brief sketch @ 51.98mm so it will just sit on the flange!
Tony

PS - I think they do a hi flow model





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Talking of alfa's, they have just started to make replica kits for these over here, anyone got a 2litre V8 alfa engine kicking around in their garage they don't want

what a motor car, just slightly, only by a hairs breath, behind the 246 in the beauty stakes

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Hate to say this, the 33 stradale is insanely gorgeous in real life. If you ever saw the movie "Silver Streak" and Richard Pryor is
about to steal an XKE, and when questioned by Gene Wilder, the reply is priceless. Look it Up. Censurable, but a great line and scene.
Don't get me wrong, I love Dino, but the 33 ( a real one) , welll, hmmmm.....

I have a Montreal, but it must remain as such.
The motor, 2600cc is a perfect fit. Now the transaxle, that's another story

I wonder what Classic Alfa suggest, as the car has to be just right even if only a copy. Maybe something from a 355, 360, 0r?
I suppose, and make the right noise with tons more power.
Don't know anything about these models, got to be chain driven, have a transaxle, but would look really right, much more reliable than the Alfa
(basically a slightly cantankerous detuned race engine)


So where do I find the thermostat for the Dino?
I mean they are not frightfully expensive in the USA, widely available anywhere, so could give a few a shot and see if the fit is right.

The various resellers, they don't mention a rubber gasket, would it be 'U' shape to go around the flange?

Regards, Alberto

PS great drawing Tony!

 

It may be worth a punt and try the stant thermostat considering the price of them, I would prefer the whaler as it has a much large orifice and therefore better flow rate similar to the Savara original.

You would need the U shaped gasket and they are ordered seperatley, this prevents the stat from moving when fitted in the recess. a point to watch when using the 54mm flange units is that it doesn't push back when opening and the secondary disc is pushed up hard to the bypass seat, if it does it will dislodge and not move in the right plane or seal the opening.

Apart from that its still work in progress, but Superformance UK sell the Behr thermot unit which is a good second choice.

33 stradale is an awesome beauty, never had the pleasure of seeing one in real life but youtube as a good selection of the car /engine sound. I would be tempted to build one if I could get the alfa V8, as you say it would need to be inch perfect but never a car you could sensibly use.


http://www.coys.co.uk/cars/1967-alfa-tipo-33-stradale-continuation

is a good example, funnily enough my aunt lives in Cuneo!! now theres a thought

 

Tony, it appears we are the only ones on this quest? How has everyone else managed?
I am guessing the Behr, is a good choice, and it is "German" after all.
When I get an opportunity, I will order the Stants and see how it goes. Will report

The Stradale, the one offered by Classic Alfa, is rather complex and quite un-original in all the underpinnings, except for the body.
It really is a kit car, with a variety of options. Cannot fit a Montreal motor in this one.
Talk to Richard, and he'll explain a lot more than I can.
I have too many projects I have to finish, so for me, out of the question.

The one at Coys is remarkable, but requires the F.I., quite a handful I assume.

Regards, Alberto

PS. As far as a Stradale goes, I sat in one, started it with two mechanics to manoeuver the starting sequence. Did not drive it more than 20 metres, back and forth, that was it.
It is a racing car, faintly disguised as a road car.
Hot as hell inside, but as good as it gets. Truly an incredible car, with 'napalm' bombs on each side for fuel tanks. Also, an impossible car to repair due to the magnesium chassis.
Sheer insanity to drive on the road now.

 

Oh well, one can dream, the Stradale went on the block in 2016...

 

Possibly because it just a boring old thermostat

I guess some just fit the one they are supplied with and actually don't step back and ask the question, is this the right part for my car, but then go nuts if a sticker isn't in the right place. !

Tony

PS- I could imagine it was a rare and nerve racking experience. Some things are best left alone, what would we all dream about if you owned it!

 

Keep digging guys. I’m interested too for future needs.

 

If anyone of you are interested by a Wahler 4033.82D thermostat, there is one still for sale on this ebay link:

https://www.befr.ebay.be/itm/TERMOSTATO-REFRIGERANTE-COOLANT-THERMOSTAT-WAHLER-PER-FIAT-FIORINO-UNO-4033-82D/224064611450?hash=item342b4aa47a:g:J20AAOSwmkFe~I7T

Regards,
Frederic

 

Thank you Frederic, it is gone...

Yet, there is a HUGE list of alternative applications, someone must have them still.
At least I hope...

Regards, Alberto

 

OK Dino in Europe, the list of applications:

I know, very long, but a pain to edit.

If you find them, please buy me 4.

Regards, Alberto

PRODUTTORE/MODELLO/TIPO

KW

ANNO DI PROD. (DAL - AL)

FIAT 127 Hatchback (127) 1.0

37

04.1977 - 12.1986

FIAT 127 Panorama (127) 1.3 D

33

01.1977 - 12.1986

FIAT 128 Coupe (128) 1.3 Berlinetta

54

03.1972 - 02.1981

FIAT 128 Familiare (128) 1.3

44

10.1969 - 10.1982

FIAT 128 Sedan (128) 1.1

40

03.1969 - 12.1984

FIAT 130 Coupe 3.2

121

10.1971 - 03.1978

FIAT 130 Sedan (130) 3.2

121

12.1971 - 03.1978

FIAT 147 Hatchback 1.0

37

10.1976 - 12.1995

FIAT 147 Panorama 1.3 D

33

07.1982 - 07.1983

FIAT Duna Sedan (146) 60 1.1

43

01.1987 - 12.1991

FIAT Duna Weekend (146) 70 1.3

49

01.1987 - 12.1991

FIAT Fiorino I Van (147) 1.0

37

01.1980 - 08.1993

FIAT Fiorino II Van (146) 60 1.1

40

01.1988 - 12.1994

FIAT Fiorino II Pick-up (146) 1.3

49

01.1988 - 12.1994

FIAT Fiorino Pick-up (147) 1.0

41

06.1982 - 10.1989

FIAT Fiorino Van (127) 1.0

37

01.1980 - 12.1987

FIAT Ritmo I Hatchback (138) 1.0 60

44

09.1978 - 05.1987

FIAT Uno Hatchback (146) 1.0

42

05.1993 - 06.2001

LANCIA Y10 (156) 1.0 Turbo

62

03.1985 - 02.1989

NUOVO E ORIGINALE WAHLER 4033.82D, TH10881G1, 4292856

NEW AND ORIGINAL WAHLER 4033.82D, TH10881G1, 4292856

 

We had exactly the same issue with the same part on our GTS - after replacement, the engine just would not cool and we tried everything until we finally noticed that the breather hole wasn't present - so obviously there had been an almighty airlock. Hole then drilled and it now behaves normally - although I wish I had seen your excellent write up pre wasted time and expense...!

 

Hello Tony,

Hoping you and family and all in Dinoland are well and safe!
Received a Stant 13378, ( almost $8 on amazon, so quite attractive)
Downside: Upper dia. 54mm instead of 57mm in housing, can make a brass ring or ally as well,
to reduce inside dia. Problem is no rubber ring, so lost on how to.
Also a few mm too short, but we can make the brass sleeve and raise bottom.
Might this work?
In EU, all the numbers I previously listed, are N/A.
Thoughts, ideas?

Kind regards, Alberto

 

All good thank you Alberto

I guess if you could make a 1mm ring (1mm dia wire?) to fit in the rubber sleeve that could work but you do need the o ring type sleeve that normally comes with the stat, these can be brought separately. I have heard some do fit the 54mm thermostat but i dont really want to risk it jamming up in the housing should it move.

I have done some homework on this on and off and found that the Facet 580-225S is equal to the Wahler 4033.82D, its 56mm diameter and has equivalent bypass and depth measurements.

Best Regards

Tony

 

In my other Italian cars, no rubber ring, stat just fits in housing, + Victor gasket on top.
Never a hiccup.
The other stats, besides Stant are a pain to find, so my fix below affords the use of a cheap stat
high quality, and potentially a solution.

So, can I just sleeve the upper housing, gasket, and voila' ?
Of course the bottom needs to be sleeved also, to raise the bottom of the lower sealing disc.
Will this work? Will post some photos, it it helps.

Regards, Alberto

 

Alberto

As far as I am aware the original Savara thermostat was designed to fit into the housing with the rubber O ring, this keeps it centralized. It was 56mm OD and fits snugly into the recess.

I have done a quick sketch showing what i think are the problems with using a 54mm thermostat, it basically is only just sitting in the recess and can [could] move. If you can find an alternative way to fix it in position then i dont see a problem. Image Unavailable, Please Login

Tony