The last analog cars versus today's offerings

I wondered if others were at all puzzled over the changes in cars over the past 25 years, specifically. Has there really been any improvement in sports cars? That would seem to be a ridiculous question. Clearly, today's Ferrari's (or Porsche's or Aston's) are much faster in a straight line or around a track. What I have been wrestling with is whether they are really better cars for drivers. Whether they are more fun. They are clearly not more challenging. So, are they more fun to drive?

It seems to me that since maybe 1995 the entire changes have been to use computers and other electronics to enable cars to corner better and to correct driver error to save the day when the cars get out of sorts. Computers stop the cars when the driver hasn't done the job or when something unexpected happens. I could work at assembling a list of all these computerized changes, but a full list is not the point. The question is whether any of this makes a car fundamentally more fun to drive.

Admittedly, I am old and most of my driving life was with analog cars. I own a BMW E30 M3, a Testarossa, an Rx7 -- all more or less analog cars -- and a Maserati Gran Turismo. I have owned a BMW 540is, a Maserati Quattroporte, and a GranTurismo, all of which have quite a few computer aids. The latter really highlights the issue here for me. I am completely bored with the Gran Truism, despite its speed. I am going to replace it and am looking at what I think are the last analog Ferrari's, like the 3.2 Mondial and the 348. Neither are very fast by today's standards. But, they "feel" great to drive. No power steering. No or limited ABS. No yaw control, etcetera.

What do you all think?

 

All good points. In some ways I can live with some of the more modern aspects eg ABS. I can always remove that fuse if I want to. I understand what you mean about being bored. My 458 is the greatest car I've ever had. Absolutely love it. But my 430 gated 6 speed is just more fun. F.U.N is what I'm really after and that's what I really look for in a car - how does it make me feel!


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I agree too. Buy the old ones.

@TheDiffuser ABS is a good example of electronic technology not getting in the way of the experience. Too much electronic control and software is applied to every single system.

The new Alpine A110 is a good example of a new car that is driver focused. The only compromise is they had the budget for one gearbox, and they went with paddles because the younger target market demands it. It’s getting great reviews, so if it’s a commercial success a manual may appear.

A110 review by Harry Metcalfe

 

I have this favourite roundabout and a road that exits it with a sharp turn up to a long straight which I always enjoy.

I’ve been testing it in a friends new modern small executive with a nice smooth engine, electric power steering and drive by wire throttle.

It completely blasts through the whole thing, totally refined, totally flat, totally composed.

But I feel nothing of the camber changes at all, no weight transfer through the different corners, but I still feel totally in control at all times, the steering is super quick and accurate but totally disconnected and feels like a computer game, and the throttle feels completely disconnected too, though it’s completely accurate and controllable.

This isn’t progress to me, though it is a nice car.

 

Sorry but the last analog cars are pre-Fuel injection. That would put it at 1978. You could say pre-electronic ignition but that would be a stretch as early electronic ignition did not alter the engine intelligently. It just delivered the spark more accurately.

Electronic fuel injection made it possible to program the engine to do things analog cars could not do.

If you want to talk analog, you have to talk about a car with carbs or mechanical fuel injection.

And I would say all day long that a car with carbs has MUCH more personality / soul than those with Electronic Fuel injection.

 

I think we are talking about the judicious use of technology.

The new A110 has ABS and fuel injection.

 

So many good comments. Defining analog as non-eltronic fuel injection is certainly good theory. I'm 70. My first car was a used XK150S I bought for $850. I grew up on carbureted cars. It is certainly true that carbureted motors have a better sound and feel. However, while they add somewhat aurally to the driving experience, I think fuel injected cars can offer a great deal of good sounds, though when you had BMW and now others essentially creating sounds, that does;t work for me at all.

I think the car companies made all these changes to broaden their markets, while meeting ever more irrational government regulations. In the old days people either could drive well or not. People who couldn't handle a fast car either cracked up or stayed away. Today, you don't need to shift and can pretend you are an F1 driver who doesn't shift either. The computers save your ass when you do something stupid. Imbeciles who cannot tie their shoes can buy a Porsche Turbo or 488 and be a hero driver right out of the box. You don't have to be able to drive well or need to learn anything about driving. lf you can work an iPhone, you can drive a supercar. (I deleted ABS on my Rx7 and had a custom manual rack built...)

The most important thing to me is how it all feels. I don't feel anything at all in my GranTurismo. Nada. Rien. No matter how I try to push it. My other cars, which are from 1987-1993, are great fun even when I'm hardly pushing them. So, I'm dumping then Gran Turismo and probably getting a 3.2 non ABS, non power steering Mondial.

 

I just watched Harry's review of the A110 and think its a good example of a better more analog, more fun, sports car.

 

This is better.

This is mine.

This is better because it's mine.

Seriously this car, albeit that it has a paddle shift, is a close as you will get to a pre-80's model car as you can today. No power steering, very simple interior, no attempt to mask the car's noises or mechanical bits, about 2400 lbs and about 240 HP. Not enough? Remember the 308 had about the same but the Alfa is 2 seconds faster 0-60. Everything about the Alfa 4c says "simple is best". And unlike the Alpine you can get to the engine easily and check the oil, water, etc while the fuel tank is right next to the mid engine, not in front.

3 years of ownership and I am still not bored.

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No, but many drivers/owners aren't as concerned with it. They're more focused on everything else...

Even more important than "fun to drive" is sound. Don't care if the newer turbo model is faster, it's all about the exhaust noise. But let's be sure to order the autoshifter, because that .2 sec 0-60 advantage is going to really change my life every day.

Should I get leather or alcantara - oh, maybe leather on the bolster, but alcantara in the middle. And what about the color of the stitching? Should it match the body or the tachometer? Either way, I need heated seats. Preferably 12-way powered (with at least 3 memory slots that recognize if it's me, my spouse, or the valet holding the transponder.) And oh - the tach! Red vs yellow vs F1-high-contract white?

Absolutely need Carbon Fiber everywhere. The dash, paddles, arm rests, air vents, and door sills. LED mood lights on the door sills, of course.

Does the rear-mirror auto-dim? That little lever has been annoying to flip for the past 30 years. Actually, screw the mirror. I want a backup camera. I'd also like that backup camera installed into the tailgate that automatically lifts and closes when I'm within 2 meters of the car. By the way, do the back seats move up/down automatically, or do I have to click the latch myself?

Other must-haves: Gotta have navigation. Even though I rarely drive anywhere I've never been (and have a phone with Maps), I need it integrated into the dash with the trip computer so that I can keep track of my times in that annual Poker Run I never do. ApplePlay is a must, but Beats® or that 10-way Bose system? It also needs BlueTooth. And mobile WiFi. And sensors that keep my car on the road while I'm texting or taking a selfie.

Fun to drive? Who cares about that? /s

 

Wish I fit.

 

I'm contemplating buying a 1969 Fiat 124 Spider. I don't think it is possible to get more old school than this. The current owner has changed out to electronic ignition, which is a good thing, but the car still has a Weber. I might also retrofit the later shoulder lap belts. Old school seat belts are good only for face plants. Then again, if I get in a wreck with this car, I doubt anything will matter. I'll use it strictly as a backcountry road cruiser. You can't go much over 65 on these roads. BTW, my out the door cost for a fully prepped car will be about $10,000. I'm thinking I can't beat the dollars for fun ratio.

 

I ordered a Caterham, I do not think you can get a new car that's as old school as it (it's basically a Lotus Seven, only with a modern Ford engine).
Caterham production numbers are so low they will make the Pista look like it's mass-produced; for that reason they are exempted from virtually all modern regulations (no ABS, no airbag, no crash test, ...)

 

The 4C is great for what it is, but what it's not, is what killed it for me. It was the closest I came to buying a paddle-shifter a couple of years ago only because it drove better than the "new/improved" turdboated Porsches. That I was able to order/get one of the very last (if not THE last) NA manual Caymans tipped it to Porsche. I could feel the lightness, the connection, etc. The turbo lag was less noticeable than the "barely noticeable" (that was an actual selling point that Porsche touts) delay/rubber band of the now-4cyl Porsche, which sounds exactly like a 69 Beetle at idle from inside the car, btw.
4C truly lost me at the "No Manual".

As for responsiveness, even my last Audi had programmed turbo-lag in the big-ish NA V8, as they prepared people for upcoming turbos. I took it back to the dealer multiple times for them to fix it, with no change because "It's supposed to be like that" - Wrong thing to tell someone who also has an old-school Audi in the garage, too, for direct comparison.

Even the Cayman, like most new cars with ABS, uses the ABS to "adjust" the brakes, rather than proper proportioning. It's all truly the "progression" of lowered expectations and conditioning.
For "analogue feel", you have to go with a pre-nanny car, or something like the aforementioned Caterham. Ideally, I'd love to be able to get a modern chassis, and cut-out the computers I don't want. Nothing arguing. Nothing checking for the number of partial sudanese monga butterflies that an extra raindrop might cause to think another second about mating, across the ocean, 3.6 years from now, caused by 2 of the CO particulates from my desire to romp the throttle, and its effect in 37 years on a spotted owl, in......... blahblahblah.....
I think that's called a Race Car, and they're frowned upon for the street.

 

I was asking myself this question the last two days as I blasted my gated manual 430 Spider around England in the autumn sunshine. I get given new supercars to review for my magazines, and I had done much of the route I took today and yesterday in a variety of high performance motors in the past 10 years. Lamborghinis, McLarens, Astons, Ferraris, Porsche RSs, AMGs of various sizes, etc.

Most of those cars were better than my 430, because they were faster, rode better, gripped better, had better equipment, etc. But the 430 Spider was more fun than, I think, all of them. Part of that is because it's manual and I love manuals, but part of it is due to the feedback from the 430, in the steering and the chassis, and its imperfections. Tramlining, camber steer, skipping across high speed bumps, pushing the tail out ("CST ACTIVATED!" Or....not) when mashing the throttle on tight corners, and the feeling of going really fast when actually in a modern luxury four door car that speed would be barely noticeable - all of these are part of the fun.

When I took a 488 Spider along the same routes, it was skin-peelingly fast. The Huracan Spyder was louder, the 720S was precise, the AMG GTR was dramatic, the GT3 RS was racy. But all of them have to create artificial fun in the form of engine or exhaust noise, artificially heavy steering, bumpy rides, or carbon fibre accoutrements. Amazing cars, all of them, but not as fun as a gated 430 Spider. I didn't find the 458 Speciale as fun as my gated 430; although I did find a Scuderia, paddle shift though it may be, more fun in extremis (but not at lower speeds).

But then I have a friend who lives along these roads, and he collects 60s Ferraris and finds my 430 boring. I've driven his 275 GTB/4 along the same roads, personally I don't find it fun - fascinating, characterful, beautiful, yes. Maybe the owner of a 488 would say that about my 430, or really analogue Ferrari.

But I'm not saying it's all subjective. There really was a point at which all cars started being designed for reasons other than to impart fun to the driver. Efficiency, safety, tech, aerodynamics, Nurburgring times - fast doesn't mean fun.

I get the point about carbs and MFI, and also about drive by wire, but I think the advent of electric steering has been the single biggest fun killer in modern driving. I don't hate power steering - the steering in my 430 is better than in my unassisted F512M - but electric systems seem to deny engineers the possibility of any genuine feedback for the driver. I also think a lot of work needs to be done on the new gen of seemingly identical twin turbo V8s

So I agree with the OP, but I don't think there was a cliff edge at which analogue fun cars turned into digital non-fun cars. It's been incremental.

 

Which is about 2.5 years longer than either 458 you owned.

But getting back to OP's question:: more people can have more fun more safely with a 1600 pound sports car with 60 HP sliding around a turn at 0.6 Gs than in a 3200 pound car with 700 HP tracking through the same turn at 1.3 Gs.

 

That's my plan except I think the Spiders weigh about 2,000 pounds and have 100 hp.

 

You know you are right. I didn't think of it that way. I said at the time I liked the F430 spider more than the 458 spider. It was more organic and less "phony" to me. The F1 box felt still like a real gearbox instead of something a programmer decided how a gearbox should feel. And the 458 spider never felt like a "true convertible" to me. If you remember, I said I liked the 458 coupe more than the spider.

And I really got tired of worrying about the cars I drive. With a $300,000 car, its human nature to not to worry and about the attention it attracts. With the Alfa I really don't care. I just drive.

To me, it's disposable. A machine I can use and abuse at my own whim. Its not a classic, its not expensive, its just fun.

When I owned my Dino it was just another "old car" with little value. Today they are worth stupid amounts. There is NO WAY I would have driven my Dino the same way if it was worth $15K instead of $400K!

I'm lucky. I owned one in a time when you could really drive it and not keep it parked in a garage.

 

I'm a little different with this.

Last analog sports cars to me are OBDII equipped, but not EDR (event data recorder) equipped.

 

Electronic steering, DBW throttle and braking all make for a numb, neutral experience. And the computers add hesistation to almost all outputs.

You get to drive a lot more cars than I do, but one thing I've noticed in several new recent exotic cars I've driven is that everything is starting to feel very similar. A couple of years ago I tried a new PDK 911 on an extended test, and I remember that at the time I was like "well it's fast and smooth, I can see why people love it," even though I didn't want it. But it turned out to be a vision of the future, because now the driving dynamics of the new Vantage and the Portofino feel to me the way that 911 did.

 

I personally think there is a huge difference between fuel injection with a mechanical vs a drive by wire throttle. Fuel injection with a mechanical throttle is very similar to a carbureted engine while a drive by wire throttle pretty much sucks.
Yes I guess I'm getting old also but there are really no new vehicles I'm interested in.

 

Agree

 

Reading your thoughts here made me think about my situation which is actually the other way around.

I have owned my 1980 308 GTSI for 10 years now and I am thinking of going the opposite way. I recently drove a 430 and a 458 and I was blown away by how different the cars were from my 308....especially the 458. The 458 was so fast, so refined, and braked and shifted perfectly. I was shocked at how it blasted me back in my seat, how the engine screamed, and fast I was able to drive it...blown away actually.

It might me nice the drive a car with working A/C too

Past 3rd gear, if you put the pedal to the floor, you have to wait a bit to go anywhere, and in the 308 100mph seems really fast but in that 458 100 was nothing.

Power seats, windows that rolls up, and going home and not stinking of raw exhaust might be nice too

Any of you want to trade?

 

This is the problem on public roads. I used to have a 1970 Triumph Bonneville. By the time you hit 100, you're eyeballs would start to come back into focus. Note I said start.

 

This is why I'm disappointed Ferrari will not build a Dino. Just give us a simple sports car. Maybe a four cylinder, manual, ABS, air bags, EFI, basic traction control, tops out at 130 mph. You know, a fun car to drive on public roads.