How well would Hamilton do in the Schumacher/Hakinnen period?

The site overall is for enthusiasts of Ferrari but we have other dedicated non-Ferrari sections such as Lamborghini, Porsche, Aviation, etc.

This section is a general F1 section. We are skewed to having more Ferrari fans than not, but that's to be expected given the nature of the rest of the site. Clearly, William follows the sport, and if he wants to talk about F1 then he's in the right place.

Just an observstion... if you value your continued membership, you should stop trying to discourage people who don't align to your fandom from posting.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

I was only asking a question? It seemed relevant in that William has such extreme views, just like myself, and to me I was trying to understand why he put himself through the mill so much with his stance, as I couldn’t see myself being at all interested in doing the same in a Le Mans thread or forum for example. I did try to make the point in a friendly, non threatening way, and I couldn’t care less who posts and where

 

I don’t know if I posted this before, don’t think so, but it’s a classic

http://youtu.be/Ka5FCLy14Uw

 

I like to discuss F1 in general, hopefully without any prejudice.
This is a good place to do that, if only there were less bias views, IMO.
I don't support a team or a root for a driver in particular.

 

Me too.

 

There are Formula 1 fans, and there are Ferrari fans who call themselves Formula 1 fans. You know, fans who only have an interest in Ferrari doing well, regardless of whom they have driving for them, and do not care about any other team or driver. There's nothing wrong with that, but if Ferrari were to leave the sport, these fans would leave as well. Becoming a true Formula 1 fan typically takes time. Back in the mid '80s, I became a fan of Prost, and therefor, the McLaren team. Of course, Senna came on board, and that was "my team" for many years. Only after about a decade could I start to appreciate the accomplishments of other teams, and drivers driving for them. No one team leaving the sport would ever change my love for the sport. Of course, this is a Ferrari chat board, so expect the heavy bias.

 

I’ve loved ferrari since I was four, watching my uncles racing Daytona’s on the streets of Palermo, and in F1, I support Ferrari as a team. I also supported drivers, not always those of the Scuderia - Prost and Senna, Michael Schumacher, Alonso and Kimi. Sometimes I’ve had to chose who I wanted to support more, and that ended up as Michael overall!

 

I know one thing for sure, if Mercedes had been this strong when Michael came back, he would have won at least #8.

 

So you saying Schumacher can't win unless he's in a top car?

 

There is no IFs and BUTs.

Only the facts matter.

Schumacher was wrongly advised to attempt a come back; by then he had lost his mojo.

Willy Weber wanted his cut, and Mercedes hoped to capitalise on his image; it didn't work.

 

Pre-1996 testing, drove the 1995 Ferrari 412 T2, which was considered an inferior car that season, and went 2 seconds a lap faster than the 1995 drivers. He was amazed that Ferrari didn't win the championship with that car. So in 1995, his championship-winning Benetton was not the best car.

1992 (victory at Spa in a Benetton, against the superior Williams), 1996 (first year at Ferrari, severe reliability trouble, still won races), 1997 (car nowhere near as good as the Williams, still won races).

And so on...

The recent Mercedes was not a dominant car until the turbo-hybrid era, because they prepared for it and lobbied for the engine change. The W01 and W02 were not capable of winning races, let alone be called a top car, and the W03 was far from dominant but improving - the times Schumacher was having a competitive race, reliability or pit crew problems caused retirements. Hamilton arrived for the W04 and it was the W05 Hybrid that started winning championships.

Hamilton joined in the ascendency of Mercedes and greatly benefited from a fortuitous change in engine regulations. Just preempting where you were going to go next.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

OK, I don't want to take anything away from Schumacher here, but one has to accept that even the best car doesn't win all the races.

There are factors that prevent a Superior car to win all the GPs in one season.

It can be reliabilty issues, drivers mistakes, weather conditions, tyre degradation, wrong strategy, racing incident, or just wrong setting, etc ...

Even the "dominating" Williams had chinks in its armour, like the McLaren before, and then the Ferrar later , etc ...

A good driver' (like Schumacher) in an "inferior" car tries to capitalise on any problem met by a driver on a Superior car.

It's a good job if he manages to win "against the odds", and a real treat for the spectators, IMO.

 

Fact is Schumacher won races in cars actually not capable of winning races, like Barcelona 1996 in the wet...period
And it was once written that everything in front of a "but" in sentences like the first one is a lie

 

No, you said that. Everyone knows Schui won with inferior cars in the past. But low-mid pack is too much to overcome.

 

Jesus Christ........ do you ever stop?

 

All this makes one Wonder why Schumacher couldn't win in an "inferior" Mercedes when he made his come back..

Even him, with his impecable credentials and his 7 titles, couldn't make a winner of that car during 3 years.

 

It took a lot to get the ferrari winning regularly, and that was a better starting point. You are arguing for arguments sake, trying to denigrate Schumacher because you hate him. Just because your little Elton couldn’t develop a car for love nor money, as confirmed by various of those that have worked with him, whereas everyone that worked with Schumacher praise his input in the development of his cars and it’s positive effect. The Mercedes turned out pretty well eventually, especially given the testing limitations which restricted Schumacher from absolutely immersing himself in the process as he had previously at ferrari and benneton, in no small way due to the efforts of Schumacher and teaching Nico Rosberg well in the meantime, again as acknowledged by those in the Mercedes team itself and so not hearsay and ********, unlike most of what Elton’s fans spout here

 

Now you're asking for divine intervention from the Lord? Look . . . this is just a chat site.

 

I know it's a chat site.

I am just puzzled by the conflicting statements I read about Schumacher, like those posted by our dear moderator NeuroBeaker in post 236.

On one hand we are told that Schumacher was capable to win in less than top cars, even a championship in 1995 which is proof of his talent.

But on the other hand, during his come back at Mercedes over 3 years Schumacher wasn't able to renew with success in cars that were not the best.

Maybe there is an explanation. The racing environment was different, and the rules had changed.

For most of his career, Schumacher benefited from unlimited testing and used that to his advantage to develop his cars

When at Ferrari, he spent days and days testing at Fiorano, trying new parts at times, but also setting his car for the next GP, fine tuning the handling, the aero for different track profiles, etc, Schumacher was very dedicated to this method and worked hard on his cars between races; that's a fact

But when he joined Mercedes, it was a new era where testing was limited by then. Instead of testing, simulator time was offered as a substitute.
The few pre-season test days were not sufficient for Schumacher to repeat his development method, and that must have put him at a disadvantage

 

No . . . I was merely asking daytona355's use of the name of the Lord in post #240.

 

OK, I don't see daytona355's posts.

 

Still trying to dismiss the achievements of Schumacher?
So it must be Nico making the car a winner as it was him, not your British hero winning first with the car....

 

He was in his forties!!! Are these the best arguments you find questioning Michael? I can only imagine your rant if someone came with thise drivel against Hamilton... about "life goals of dismiss" or "the hatred you have to fight". You make yourself absolutely implausible with these double standards....

@kraftwerk: this is the guy you defend, please tell me again that he is unbiased and we were the ones driving him to become a Lewis fan

 

Developing a car is a 2 way street.. The engineers give a driver a car. The driver then test the car and gives them there feedback on what the car is doing. The engineers make changes that the feel will suit the drivers requests, And it goes round and round. Now add in a second driver and now you have 2 different driving styles to cater for. Now factor in a car that does not have much flexibility in tuning the car for a particular track or driver, or worse the engineers interpret the drivers inputs a different way it is easy to see how a driver and car don't gel.

When MS came out of retirement with Mercedes yes he struggled and it was clear that by the end of 2012 he was quite frustrated with the way the comeback happened. As much as you want to doubt this fact MS planted the seed that helped Mercedes grow into the power house they are now after the catered an engine spec to there liking. If you look at the current car you can see that Mercedes engineers are finally starting to gel with getting a car that responds to track conditions. Look at last year, The Mercedes was a slug on tight tracks. This year they had issues but found a few tricks that help (Radiator wheels, Rumored rear wheel steer diff)

MS did more for Mercedes / Hamilton than the fanboys care to admit to. If Mercedes did not have the input of MS to guide them and learn from the chassis would not be remotely close to what they have now. Ferrari's dominance did not happen over night with MS either.

 

Pete Firstly I don't need to jump to defend William, he has you on ignore as far as I am aware, for a reason, so ask yourself why that maybe.

Besides my point has been confirmed, it seemed to me the more you post about that subject matter, the more you convert.

You claim folk like to post drivel about Hamilton, however that is just your opinion, which could be considered a disrespectful one at best, likewise the same could be said when folk claim Michael Schumacher (for example) could do no wrong.

However It has been pointed out numerous times that the F1 section is open to all fans of any driver/marque, it seems to me you are not grasping that fact, so that being the case, trust me you are going to read things anti Ferrari, pro Hamilton, et al.


Besides the fact I cannot control posters subject matter regarding post's about Hamilton.

This seems a simple solution to me, that's if you don't like arguing! about so called Hamilton drivel.

When you read a post you think is drivel, just do not reply to it, I mean I know how you feel, just try scrolling through page after page of Daytona Sid's Ham suck posts , it's a waste of bandwidth IMO, so you just move on, there is no point in discussing with such a mind set, because you get banned...and I would know ..so I figure it's best to try and enjoy the'sport where folk are bound to have differing opinions that maybe right or wrong...

For the record I don't hate or depise any driver, and I can't think why anybody would!.