car design thread | Page 291 | FerrariChat

car design thread

Discussion in 'Creative Arts' started by jm2, Oct 19, 2012.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. NeuroBeaker

    NeuroBeaker Advising Moderator
    Moderator

    Oct 1, 2008
    40,005
    Huntsville, AL., USA
    Full Name:
    Andrew
    When living in Pennsylvania 1996-1998, I went to the New York Auto Show once with a friend and his dad. They were really interested in seeing the launch of a new Lincoln Town Car, so they went along for that and I tagged along because I liked cars and had never been to a show.

    I liked the Isuzu VehiCross at the time. It was a sporty-looking, futuristic-looking 3-door SUV. 14 year old me thought it was very cool.

    Porsche also showed a new or recently released 911 model, can't remember exactly what, but it was probably the 993 Turbo S given the timeframe. Never got to see it because the show was absolutely PACKED with people and we couldn't get anywhere near the Porsche stand.

    Overall, it was a great experience. I've just not been back to an auto show because of time, funds, and/or nobody else to go with. My wife loves cars but hates big crowds. I'd go see another show if I could, I enjoyed it.

    I've indulged car viewing in other ways like auto museums, which are more sedate and so my wife also enjoys them. :)

    All the best,
    Andrew.
     
    jm2 likes this.
  2. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 19, 2002
    19,168
    michigan
    Full Name:
    john
    Never ridden a Honda, never even sat on one.
    Harleys & Triumphs were my rides Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
    G. Pepper and Texas Forever like this.
  3. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Eight Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    85,600
    Texas!
    I soon graduated to Triumphs, hated Harleys.
     
  4. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper Three Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Mar 15, 2012
    38,364
    Texas/Colorado
    Full Name:
    George Pepper
    Close! Very close. I had a Honda trail 70 (We called them Mini Trails back then).
     
    Texas Forever likes this.
  5. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Eight Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    85,600
    Texas!
    The Detroit show is a trip. Seriously freezing ass cold. First night is gang banger night, not by invitation though. If you stay at the hotel next to the Cobo, you'll hear police sirens all night long. Gawd help you if you take a taxi at night to go out to eat. And then, and then, you get talked into going to Canaduh. o_O
     
  6. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 19, 2002
    19,168
    michigan
    Full Name:
    john
    Funny, I’ve been attending the Detroit Show for almost 50 years.
    Never experienced what you described.
    They are moving back to June in 2020. No more dreaded winter.
     
  7. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Eight Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    85,600
    Texas!
    If you're talking about gang banger night, it's unofficial. Right around 6:00 pm, I started seeing groups of young black men, some wearing blue, some wearing red. The cops were also in groups. I decided to leave. I think the year was 2004?
     
    jm2 likes this.
  8. NeuroBeaker

    NeuroBeaker Advising Moderator
    Moderator

    Oct 1, 2008
    40,005
    Huntsville, AL., USA
    Full Name:
    Andrew
    Oh, those kinds of gang bangers. I thought you were trying to make a hotel recommendation to free-spirited practitioners of a certain lifestyle.

    All the best,
    Andrew.
     
    Texas Forever likes this.
  9. tritone

    tritone F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 8, 2003
    7,198
    On the Rock
    Full Name:
    James
    Very thoughtful post...product available online earlier (usually), too crowded, etc. Probably the only way though to really get a true sense of a design; images online are always manipulated to best advantage...do you think it's still critical for practicing designers/students?
     
  10. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 19, 2002
    19,168
    michigan
    Full Name:
    john
    Auto shows are so expensive for the mfg.
    Everything gets leaked online one way or another. There are no ‘surprises’ anymore.
    This was the big debate around the upcoming C8.
    Do they show it at an Auto Show, or a special event away from a show for maximum impact?
    Everyone wants max control over how their product gets revealed. Apple is a master at this.
    Stay tuned.......
     
  11. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 19, 2002
    19,168
    michigan
    Full Name:
    john
    Great story about the design of the ill-fated 1973 barracuda
    CCotW: Plymouth Barracuda (1973)

    12 October 2018 | by Karl Smith
    Open in new window" style="box-sizing: border-box[​IMG]
    The Butterfly Effect
    Spring, 1941: The legendary Harley Earl gathers his design team for an early field trip and strikes out for a nearby airfield for a peek at a secret aeroplane that is to be powered by a GM Allison engine. The team, only provisionally approved to be on base, quietly made their way across the tarmac to get a view at the radical new fighter. No cameras were allowed. The team could not get within thirty feet of the plane... but what the team saw made a deep impression.

    Open in new window" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">[​IMG]
    The P-38 Lightning changed the world a little before it even left the ground

    One designer, Frank Hershey, could not get the chance encounter out of his mind. He would spend the war years sketching cars – streamlined teardrops of chrome and steel, like so many designs of the era. There was one exception, however.

    Open in new window" style="box-sizing: bor[​IMG]
    The P-38's iconic twin booms and rudders inspired the iconic automotive design elements of the 1950s

    Hershey’s car designs always terminated in the design element he first saw on that futuristic plane, which would soon be known as the P-38 Lightning, the “Fork-Tailed Devil” as the Germans would describe it. That element? The tailfin.

    Open in new window" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">[​IMG]
    Egyptian forces cross the Suez Canal on pontoon bridges

    October, 1973: Egyptian tanks roll across the Suez Canal and the Yom Kippur War begins. Fought for nineteen days, the war altered the face of the Middle East. OPEC, the cartel that controlled a large portion of the world‘s supplies of oil and was dominated by Arab states, was outraged at the American support of Israel. OPEC initiated an embargo against the West, resulting in the drastic shortage of oil, and an energy and financial crisis.

    The shock of the energy crisis changed myriad energy, defense, and financial policies across the globe and also the planning decisions of major corporations, including the automobile manufacturers.

    Open in new window" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">[​IMG]
    Oversimplified, but workable definition of the Butterfly Effect

    The above stories are examples of the concept of the ‘Butterfly Effect’, which, oversimplified, can be described as the effect of a simple event that causes large consequences elsewhere.

    It is a central tenet of chaos theory, but is also present in the studies of weather and climate (the term was coined by a meteorologist, Edward Norton Lorenz) and is also a central theme of science fiction, especially time travel stories (Ray Bradbury’s “The Sound of Thunder” being the definitive example).

    The Lost Barracuda
    In the case of the 1973 oil crisis, it was the “butterfly” of Egyptian tanks crossing the Suez that ultimately led to a worldwide energy crisis that would cut deep into American spending patterns, plus consumption of goods and services of all kinds.

    Open in new window" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">[​IMG]
    AMC Gremlin – a struggling little compact car that got a huge boost in sales from the OPEC oil embargo

    Car sales in general plummeted, but particularly gas-guzzling sedans and sports/ muscle cars. Imported cars, previously derided as toys or starter cars for college kids, enjoyed a newfound interest, as did the quirky offerings of American Motors, where Richard Teague and his design team managed, in spite of long odds, to produce a strange line of ‘so-ugly-it’s-cute’ cars like the Gremlin, Hornet and later, the glassine Pacer.

    Open in new window" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">[​IMG]
    Detroit gas guzzlers like the Chrysler Imperial were phased out. Great ‘Fuselage’ styling, though

    Detroit was in a panic. Smaller cars had been introduced by the Big Three a couple of years prior, but were given only scant attention. Henry Ford II was notably contemptuous of Ford’s own subcompact Pinto and the newly downsized Mustang.

    To Ford and many other executives at the Blue Oval and beyond, small cars belonged in Europe and Japan, not in the wide-open spaces of America.

    The balance sheets, however, did not lie; change would have to come to the Big Three, and soon. Product planning teams looked into future products and began the difficult process of altering or phasing out products.

    Over at Chrysler, product planners looked through the extensive portfolio of gas guzzling cars in the lineup. A number of cars were singled out for elimination, downsizing, or radical altering.

    Open in new window" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">[​IMG]
    1964 Barracuda, an iconic pony car, pictured in a not-so-subtle reference to the Ford Mustang

    Plymouth’s iconic Barracuda pony car sat on the razor’s edge. It was enormously popular with the performance car guys in the company, but the finance department saw it as a drain on resources. The design team was nevertheless charged with creating a fourth-generation Barracuda that was scheduled to debut in the 1974 model year.

    Open in new window" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">[​IMG]
    The third-generation Barracuda

    Teams began sketching, seeking ideas that would evolve the design of the Barracuda. Two themes emerged from this process. A muscular theme was championed by Shunsuke “Matty” Matsuda and Don Hood, while a smoother, flowing design was advanced by the team of John Herlitz and John Sampson. The teams began translating sketches into clay, with two themes combined on each of the two models.

    Open in new window" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">[​IMG]
    The rear fascia was a close carryover from the third-gen Barracuda

    The teams were in competition, but also met to critique and exchange ideas. At times the muscular themes took on a more flowing style, and then the flowing surfaces of the Herlitz/Sampson proposal would grow more muscular. Dodge designers would stop by for a look. There was a strong awareness of the importance of the project; it could influence Plymouth design for years to come.

    Open in new window" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">[​IMG]
    Two models, four designs. The Barracuda team made the most of their studies in clay

    Finally, the four proposals were simplified into two, and then again into one model which was then turned into a fiberglass model. This model was a blend of the muscular and the flowing themes. It drew on Barracuda design cues, but definitely looked toward more compact and muscular composition.

    Open in new window" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">[​IMG]
    This clay model was the basis of the fiberglass model shown to a focus group

    The finished model was shipped to a Chrysler focus group in Cincinnati, Ohio, to show to potential buyers. Plymouth designers sensed trouble. Cincinnati was the kind of conservative market where Chrysler sold Dodge sedans, not muscle cars.

    Why was the car not taken to California or some other hot market for the Barracuda?

    Open in new window" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">[​IMG]
    This fiberglass model was shown to a focus group. It was not a hit

    Not surprisingly, the Barracuda design flopped in Cincinnati. The design team waited for the verdict without much hope.

    One designer remembered the Ohio debacle like this: “That wild body went to Cincinnati of all places, and it was a disaster. I came back from Cincinnati and realized it was all over; management didn’t want muscle cars anymore. It was the saddest day of my career at Chrysler.

    Finally, the word came down from on high. The Barracuda would not be reworked for the 1974 model year. A mild refresh was ordered. Designers were disappointed but not surprised. The Cincinnati focus group experiment seemed stacked against the Barracuda from the beginning. The planning and finance groups just needed a nail to hang their hat on.

    As if to punctuate the Barracuda’s demise, the fiberglass mock-up fell off of the forklift as it was returned to Detroit, and the model ruined. The symbolism wasn’t lost on anyone.

    Open in new window" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">[​IMG]
    The proposed refresh was reminiscent of the Roadrunner Superbird

    Open in new window" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">[​IMG]
    The Superbird itself is a legend now, a sales disappointment then

    Designers were instructed to give the Barracuda a nose job, a minor alteration that was a bit reminiscent of the Roadrunner Superbird, but it was all for naught. The Chrysler planners ultimately decide not to extend the Barracuda’s life at all. The Roadrunner would continue, but as a watered-down version of the Fury, and then, ignominiously, a version of the Volaré, a downsized Plymouth midsize coupé.

    Chrysler had killed its muscle cars.

    Cruel Irony, Screaming Chicken
    Ironically, Chrysler killed the Barracuda and Challenger at the very moment when pony car sales were poised for a rebound. After the initial oil shock, Detroit managed to engineer effective responses to the government’s new pollution and safety regulations, as well as achieve some modest gains in fuel mileage. Pony and muscle car sales began a slow and steady rebound.

    Open in new window" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">[​IMG]
    The Butterfly Effect: A movie about a beer smuggling outlaw and a runaway bride revives the pony car, and Pontiac

    Also, in 1977, a movie became a hit that launched an unlikely spike in pony car sales. Smokey and the Bandit was the story of a redneck beer-smuggling Robin Hood racing one step ahead of a corrupt Sheriff to deliver a precious load of Coors beer (!) to a thirsty client.

    The movie was basically one long car chase, and Bandit’s car was a new (not actually released) Pontiac Firebird Trans Am, complete with the iconic “screaming chicken” Firebird emblem on the hood. All that screen time created a hero out of the car itself-as well as its two occupants, Burt Reynolds and Sally Fields. The movie was the second-highest grossing movie of the year (behind Star Wars). Sales of the Trans Am skyrocketed.

    Open in new window" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">[​IMG]
    Firebird Trans Am with a “Screaming Chicken” on the hood. An unlikely star

    By 1979, Firebird sales accounted for two out of every five Pontiacs sold. The car would save Pontiac, at a time when GM was considering closing the division altogether. It was an ‘I told you so’ moment for Firebird purists within GM, who recalled (and did not forgive) the effort to kill the Firebird nameplate back in 1972.

    Ford’s Mustang and Chevrolet’s Camaro sales piggybacked on the success of the Firebird. Good times, but Chrysler had to sit on the sidelines. Carl Cameron, a designer in the Dodge studio later recalled, “We got out of the only part of the market that grew. We abandoned it, and I always thought that was a mistake.

    Indeed, Chrysler would soon face bankruptcy and need government loans to bail the corporation out. The sales of all their cars lagged behind other companies for years, even when their products improved. It was two decades before Chrysler would return with a pony car of its own. By then, Plymouth was gone and with it the Barracuda.

    Open in new window" style="box-sizing: border-[​IMG]
    Today’s Dodge Challenger – old-school badassery for Baby Boomers

    The butterfly effect teaches us that design doesn’t happen in a vacuum. One likes to dream of a pure design environment, free of the contaminants of program, finances and politics. Ultimately though, what designers of all types do is design for life – in all its messiness – and, hopefully, make it better. This means understanding that the design world is subject to strange twists of fate that animate, and haunt, the rest of life.

    To master design, one must get out of the studio, out into life, and scan the horizon.

    There is a butterfly out there, flapping its wings… or is it a screaming chicken?
     
  12. anunakki

    anunakki Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 8, 2005
    78,831
    Las Vegas Nevada
    Full Name:
    Jerry
    I wonder if we will ever see non-aero friendly design elements come back, like tailfins.
     
  13. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 19, 2002
    19,168
    michigan
    Full Name:
    john
    What goes around, comes around.
     
    anunakki likes this.
  14. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    Non-aero????
    Chrysler touted their tailfins on their '57 offerings as making the car more stable in crosswinds.
    That's aero, isn't it?

    My Dad bought a '57 Dodge... good looking car at the time.
     
    Texas Forever likes this.
  15. anunakki

    anunakki Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Oct 8, 2005
    78,831
    Las Vegas Nevada
    Full Name:
    Jerry
    It was probably 'aero' back then :D
     
  16. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 19, 2002
    19,168
    michigan
    Full Name:
    john
    Enzo himself once said, ' Aerodynamics are for those that don't know how to build engines' :eek:
     
  17. NeuroBeaker

    NeuroBeaker Advising Moderator
    Moderator

    Oct 1, 2008
    40,005
    Huntsville, AL., USA
    Full Name:
    Andrew
    Wouldn't that have had the opposite effect by increasing the side profile?

    All the best,
    Andrew.
     
    MK1044 likes this.
  18. energy88

    energy88 Three Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 21, 2012
    32,154
    West of Fredericksburg, VA
    Full Name:
    John
    Speaking of Smokey & The Bandit, there happens to be a story in today's Journal of ClassicCars.com today about the original 1977 Trans Am Bandit car being selected for the movie and how it was cobbled together by Pontiac from a 1976 model and the subject of the first promotional brochure.

    Back when they were plotting out the film, director Hal Needham and star Reynolds were trying to decide what car to cast as Reynolds’ ride. Several Detroit muscle cars were considered — until Needham and Reynolds saw the promotional brochure for the 1977 Pontiac Trans Am.

    “I remember when Hal Needham and I first saw this car,” Reynolds says in a video as he sits next to the car when it visited his home. “It was love at first sight.”

    To have the brochure ready for the launch of the 1977 model year, Pontiac took a ’76 Trans Am — one with a 455cid V8 and 4-speed transmission — and replaced its front end with the new ’77 design for the brochure photo shoot. The car also was equipped with a black deluxe interior with center console, stereo audio, power windows, rear defroster, and the Y82 Limited Edition package with Hurst T-top, and in addition to the brochure photo session was used for several promotional events.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    https://journal.classiccars.com/2018/10/10/an-85-year-old-woman-owns-the-car-that-inspired-the-bandits-trans-am/?utm_campaign=20181012&utm_content=20181012_ds_advertorial__featured_dealer_with_logo_inventory&utm_medium=email&utm_source=zaius&zm64_id=ZW5lcmd5ODhAZWFydGhsaW5rLm5ldA%3D%3D
     
    G. Pepper, jm2 and anunakki like this.
  19. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 19, 2002
    19,168
    michigan
    Full Name:
    john
    Have a 'screaming chicken' for my garage, if I ever get around to hanging it on the wall Image Unavailable, Please Login
    I believe 'Smokey & the Bandit' was the 2nd highest grossing film in '77 after Star Wars
     
  20. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper Three Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Mar 15, 2012
    38,364
    Texas/Colorado
    Full Name:
    George Pepper
    When the '64 Barracuda came out, we were stationed in Panama. One of my dad's pilot buddies was so taken with the car, that he bought one and had it shipped to Panama! The first time I saw it, I thought it was from the future. I just LOVED the huge fastback window. I spent a lot of time looking at that car.

    Also, I got lost on the back roads in North Carolina in my '69 VW and ran out of gas once. I was carrying my gas can and hadn't taken more than a dozen steps when a very friendly and affable guy pulled over to offer me a ride. He was in a white Superbird or Charger Daytona (Can't remember which)! It was set up to be more of a comfy ride than a racer, and even had an automatic transmission. This was the summer of '75.

    Awesome post, John. :)
     
    Texas Forever and jm2 like this.
  21. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 19, 2002
    19,168
    michigan
    Full Name:
    john
  22. ModernLou

    ModernLou Karting

    Dec 20, 2017
    96
    Full Name:
    Lou Zucaro
    jm2 that was a fantastic post about the ill-fated Barracuda. Just one nit: Smokey & the Bandit was the #4 movie of 1977, also behind Close Encounters and Saturday Night Fever.
     
    of2worlds and jm2 like this.
  23. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 19, 2002
    19,168
    michigan
    Full Name:
    john
    Sorry , my source told me it was #2.
    I stand corrected!
     
  24. slm

    slm F1 Rookie
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 5, 2004
    4,107
    Near Lambeau field
    Full Name:
    Steve M
    What a great piece of Garage Art!!!
     
    jm2 likes this.
  25. jm2

    jm2 F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 19, 2002
    19,168
    michigan
    Full Name:
    john
    Thanks, I’ve had it since the mid ‘70’s!
     

Share This Page