Sly_G's GTS QV rebuild thread

Very good to hear. Keep us posted!

 

OK, more progress. With my friend and mechanic mentor Bernard, we found the time to work on the head cylinders.

One head was rebuilt recently and the other was original (80K miles). We replaced the valve guides on the original head since the others were new. All head recieved new valves, seats were refreshed and both were surfaced to 10:1 CR.

Removing and pressing the new guides was certainly the most stressful operation, the rest was fairly easy, despite the need for heating the head to 100C in the middle of heat wave in Europe (40C)... Fun experience.

Some pictures:

Fabricating custom tools for removing and installing the guides:

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Pressing the guides out:

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refreshing the seats:

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And surfacing the heads:

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I'll take a picture of the finished product later.

Now moving on with the rest of the engine (cleaning, replacing bearings, etc...) before starting re-assembly.

Cheers all!

Sly

 

Hello Sly,

probably it would have been sufficient to put the heads into the midday sun

Great thread.

Greetings to nearby Alsace
Martin

 

Well, we actually left them in the sun and they went up to about 60C... not enough
It was a good pre-warming procedure though!

 

Hello Sly,
Welcome from Spain, I owe an 87 328 GTS Us specs. Pretty much the same engine layout as yours and I'm rebuilding the engine right now. In my opinion your liners are shot, mine looked better and yet were oval and out of tolerance(with new ring gap was 0.9mm, limit wear is 0.8mm). My car had the same compression problem plus a head gasket leak on cylinder #5.
I would not go to steel liners and no, you cannot use stock nicasil rings in steel liners. Nicasil cylinders should not be re-honed, after asking many experts at machine shops(the guys who actually do the work), they recommended fabricating steel liners and modifying pistons to fit appropriate rings.
Finally I decided to stay stock, as much as possible. Measured all the pistons, which showed all were ok, bought new rings and sent all the liners to Kustom Kraft to get them striped and re-plated.
A good engine repair does not necessarily mean " replace everything". You need to measure everything twice and decide what can be saved, what has to replaced and what can be repaired. I know machining prices are crazy in some locations, in Spain prices are fair and results are excellent.
My email is: [email protected] if you want pictures or just to share opinions.

 

Sly, sorry if I’ve missed it but how many miles was on the engine and overall, how was the condition of the motor considering the mileage it has?

 

Sly, by the pictures you posted, I've seen you're working on the heads, looks great!
I did the same job on mine, replaced all the guides ground the seats, valves and installed viton guide seals(my car was seeping oil through the nylon seals).
This job was performed about 5 years ago and... still kept on seeping oil through the seals. Although the oil consumption did get better, it didn't stop.
Found this out on the last engine overhaul, when the heads were striped and many valves(not all) had a lot of burnt oil crud on the back side.
The only way around this are new valves(the stems are slightly worn), which I'm not going to do.
To be honest, I'm disappointed with the engine. At only 59K I've done the heads and now doing the liners, that's a lot of wear in such short millage, not to mention clutch and belts(they only last 20K).
Have to say that I drive the car every day, no garage queen, and honestly expected a much more reliable and bullet proof engine.
Many people may not approve my statements, never the less it's my opinion.
In southern Spain it's not unusual to run across 308s, 355s and 360s... the only ones that sound great were the 360s, the others sounded like crap(mechanical noise and misfiring cylinders) .
The 308 had been my dream car since I was 20. In 2010 my dream came true, and so I bought a 328 US specs to be "on the safe side"... It's supposed to be pretty much bullet proof... sorry to say that this is not true.

 

Hinecker, these engines were not really designed for longevity. My 2V had very worn guides and marginally worn valves at 56k km. The crank was still good but rod bearings shot. 2nd synchro was near the limit and all seals were leaking due to heat/age. It's not cheap or easy to maintain as a daily driver but you do get to drive a Ferrari every day! If the fun is no longer worth the effort/expense, get a Boxter or Miata for your daily driver.

 

Hello Derek, I see your point and suppose that the engineers who designed these cars had track usage on mind, but that doesn't justify that "normal" driving should wear out the engines so fast. Just as an example, nicasil is very popular in 2 and 4 cycle motorcycle engines, even in light aircraft engines. When you overhaul these engines, most of the times, you replace rings only, because the cylinders look like glass and measure within specs.
Don't know, just doesn't make sense why Ferrari engines wear out so fast.
Once my engine is rebuilt back to stock, I'll observe the wear, should be normal. This car had two previous owners, who knows how it had been driven. It's the first Ferrari I own, so can really compare, now I do see a lot of people on this chat rebuilding engines with very low millage.
I really believe that the blame on short engine life falls more on drivers than on engineers.

 

There is wear and there is old age. Both have an influence on engines of course. Most of these cars are 30-40 years old and do many short fun drives.
You cannot compare this to a car that does 200km every day.
Cold starts are not good for engines, cars that do 100.000km in 30 years had a lot of cold starts and spent a lot of time sitting in a corner of a garage.

 

Morning Harry, Fully agree with you, the less you drive a car the more it's going to start developing problems like oil and water leaks. Cold starts washes the cylinders out and doesn't lubricate properly.
And you're right, after 30+ years all the rubber parts are way passed their service life. That is why I drive my car every day, just like a regular car, I suppose most of the engine wear was already there when I bought it.
In my opinion the engine is well designed and good technology even for todays standards. On the other hand, if people don't drive the cars, the manufacturer has no feedback on possible design errors.
Some things could have been improved, like hydraulic tappets and timing chains instead of belts, the technology was there.
Back in the eighties it was very common to find this layout on Fiats and Volkswagens, proved to be very reliable. Bosch K-jet was the latest technology on fuel injection, and still is very reliable.

 

Well, this is a bit out of topic, but nevertheless...
There are well known examples (plural, meaning not only one car...) of Quattrovalvoles engines over 150.000 kms; there is one well-known german car over 250.000 kms, not yet rebuilt (euro, non-catalysed, 308 QV).
I have two friends with 125.000 kms 328s.
The history of the car, the way it has been serviced and driven is of course very important. This is one of the reason that a documented history is a first-class asset.
Overall, serviced properly, the QV engine, either the 3,0 or even the 3,2 is fairly reliable and solid; usually, mechanics consider the 3,2 good for 100.000 miles or 160.000 kms before having to be opened. I have two 328s (Euro, non-cat); not a single engine problem whatsoever in ten years so far. My only rule is that I never drive one of the cars for a trip less than 80 kms.
Of course, being built in relatively small numbers, reliability may vary; but in the Ferrari world, the 3,2 engine is reputed to be one of the most reliable.

Rgds

 

Hello, as said before, probably the damage was already there. Once I rebuild the engine it should be good to go for many years(I hope!).
As a mechanic (old timer) and used to repairing European cars, this car is quite familiar and holds no special secrets. Quality is seen throughout the entire car, no complaint on that side.
I'm really hopping that when it's put back together with new nicasil plated liners and rings, it won't have to be opened again, at least not while it's in my hands.

Rgds

 

Oh, agreed entirely: the technology of these engines is no rocket science, but was up-to-date in their days, and quality is here. I would also tend to think that once rebuild, you should be good for the proverbial 100.000 miles / 160.000 kms without opening it again. You didn't have any information about the car's history, service, etc...when you bought it?

Rgds

 

No, no info on the car. It took about a year and a lot of research to locate a 328 in Spain(this where I live, although I'm a US citizen...long story). All I know is that it was imported from the States(Texas) in 92. It was located in Madrid. Looked "fine" no body damage nor rust, started right up and sounded ok, Odometer read 29K, drove it down south to Sevilla 550Km, no problem. I paid 38,000 Euros in 2010, which was in the standard price range.
By the way, I'm John.

 

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Well, then Hi, John...the engine sure looks rather dirty when pulled out of the car; what's the engine number?

Rgds

 

Don't know right now, have to check it out at home. Would this really mean anything important or just to track the history of the car?

 

Yeah! it was dirty for sure, this is what an everyday driven car engine looks like.

 

Not really important; might help to see if it coordinates well with other cars around yours in the production line; the VIN of the car would help, too...something might come out of this, as the history for a US cars is usually slightly easier to rebuild than the one of most "euro" cars ...
And a knee-jerk reflex for the "anorak" that I am, collecting chassis numbers, engine numbers, etc...

Rgds

 

I'm going to take a guess that it was only on the intake valves and if so I'm going to suggest that it has nothing to do with valve guide seals but rather a characteristic of the K-Jet injection system as it sprays fuel directly on to the valve. I say this because I had the exact same condition on my heads (with 60,000 miles) and my car used virtually no oil between changes.

Perhaps you are talking about a different condition, I was told by an experienced re-builder that the condition I observed is normal for these engines and in fact a large number of K-Jet equipped engines in general.

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Morning Kcab, valves look pretty much like mine, although the exhaust valves had also a carbon buildup on both inner and outer head valve surface. So by what your saying, this is to be considered normal.
All my injectors are new, replaced with brass ones... I have noticed that the spray pattern is not all that even on small metering plate openings(when you depress the plate slightly it's more a drip than a spray). Checked pressure, cold and worm, all ok... maybe it's just the way it's designed. Modern fuel injection works at a much lower pressure, computer controlled and injectors are electro valves spray pattern is much more precise and accurate.
Fuel efficiency ain't all that good either, it burns about 12/13 liters per 100Km, don't know what that equals in MPG.

 

Well John, as for your fuel efficiency, it doesn't seem abnormal to me at all: 12/13 l per 100 kms is fine usually if you have "some" city driving: that gives 19,6 to 18,1 miles per US gallon.

Depends of course of what your driving is, but my cars (euro, non-cat engine) average usually:
- 10 l / 100 on the highway at 125 km/h (= 23,5 mpg)
- 11 l / 100 driving on the country roads (= 21,4 mpg) (and not hitting the rev limiter)
and 12 to 13, as yours, if much city driving is on the schedule.

Rgds