Miura, the original supercar

I do not know what some people think ... Arrogance is coming before the fall!

Here numbers are thrown into the room, which are partly not verifiable neither to determine exactly. Imo the overall package of a car makes it interesting…If there are two Miura SV available, one with air condition, late VIN but in non original condition, repainted several times, original interior not preserved and on the other hand a Miura SV, without air condition, but original condition, I am very confident, the original car will achieve a higher price. Therefore we can agree, we cannot compare cars each other cause every car has his own history which makes it more or less valueable.

Concerning # 4808:

I would not want to compare this car to the original Lamborghini Miura Roadster # 3498. # 4808 was rebuilt at Lambo Motors AG in Basel, Switzerland and the design was made by Thomas Degen, who has no name recognition like Bertone. To be honest, this particular car looks like a typical tuning car from the 80s, just have a look at the Gotti wheels.


Olivier, from where do you know which is the first or second #5100? Do you checked the body number stamps?


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#4912 @ Pebble Beach in 2016

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Leo,

There is no arrogance whatsoever… if you have read some, it was not our intention, but more your interpretation/feeling, as I don't write nor Joe with arrogance.


About #5100, yes I was privileged to check both cars, Bertone stamped #850... the explanation is easy to deduct… do you guess it ???


About #4808, it is your choice to not compare it to Bertone Roadster… and I don't compare them as they are 2 different cars, nevertheless 2 historical cars, but one was never showed on Lamborghini stand while the second one did...

#4808 was not rebuilt as you wrote, it was belonging to Mr Zenari, that I have interviewed thanks to Raymond who gave me the link.

André Zenari owned #4808, and he wondered to have a Targa Miura, this is the 1st idea…. why not ?!?

Zenari was salesman at the dealership Lambo Motors AG belonging to tandem Peter Hartman & Freddy Schüpbach.

To make it short Thomas Degen is not the designer of the car, sorry to correct your mistake.

Degen was a friend of Hartman and he designed the ugly rear wing… as the rear and front hoods were supplied by the factory to their dealer Lambo Motors AG, and the front underneath spoiler was an existing part which was adapted to the Miura.

The cosmetic/design is a matter of taste, I have no intention to debate, if an owner wonder a Targa, why not, Stratman made few in USA too… but none of the ones in USA had the chance to figure on an official Lamborghini stand in Geneva… you see my point, and even more at the occasion of the rebirth of the moribond factory.

You can't alter history as this particular car was displayed officially at the rebirth of the brand in 1981, it is in all period Lamborghini books.

Thus, the criticism of design is one point that can be debated here if you wish, but historically nobody can't argue against it… it was legitimate by its appearance and the waves it caused throught the Press… all this was agreed by the new owners, the Mimran Brothers, whose target was to make speak about Nuova Ferruccio Lamborghini Automobili… what else ?

BTW, I had the pleasure to meet also the son of the Following owner who bought it from Lambo Motors AG, from Mr Hartman… Mr Calvelli.

 

Yes #4912 was there in 2016.
It was judged in the "Class S" of Pebble Beach Concours: "Lamborghini Miura 50th Anniversary"
It was not awarded.
Miura #3979 prod.348, #4846 prod.647 and #3408 prod.611 got respectively the 1s, 2nd and 3rd places.

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Gracie Bruno….

 

Lots of confusion that still exists and unanswered questions about these "dry sump" Miura SVs.

4878 according to miura-svj.com, original owner Jacques Dembiermont did not have the engine from the burned original Jota, as stated in the Bob Wallace letter, but a new engine. Dembiermont oversaw it being built on the Lamborghini production line and would not have wanted the fire damaged casings of the Jota engine. However on miuraregister.com 4878 is also said to have been inspected in 2002 where it was said that the engine is date stamped 1969, with one cylinder head from 1969 and the other from 1967. You will have to subscribe (recommended) to get exact dates. So does 4878 today even have a non original to the car engine???? 4878 also has a single, not split sump.

4956 was said to be crashed while being serviced at the factory and a new car given to the owner in replacement using the same 4956 chassis number plate with the engine block from the crashed car ending up in another Miura. The wrecked 4956 chassis is said to have been used to make 5092 or was it 5100? Surely not???? Or is the 4956 that exists today really 5100? My head is spinning.

Are there any pictures of the dry sump/oil tanks of 4878 and 4956?

 

You are right….

Here is a picture of engine with dry sump of 4956/5100 (1st made) - compensation to Lansberg - it was featured in a French magazine
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Thank you. May I ask what you mean by (1st made)?

 

Why not…

#5100 - 1st made is the one that was on the production line when the factory had to compensate or to replace (this point still has to be clarified) Landsberg's destroyed #4956.

#5100 - 2nd made is the one that was made by Bertone in emergency after the delivery of 1st made (recorded in the income Bertone delivery and assigned to Hahne), so it had to fullfil Hubert Hahne 's order for a client… the one that I saw in Germany with all German titles...

 

Thanks for clarifying.

4956/5100 (1st made) is now back as SVJ as pictured in your post 17214?

Any idea on whether 5092 was actually made with the wrecked 4956 chassis?

 

From my knowledge, no other Miura was displayed close to Miura SV #4846 at Geneva Motorshow 1971.
Yes, the Lamborghini LP500 Countach Prototype was displayed alongside Miura SV #4846, and the Lancia Stratos Zero concept also.
I was not there in 1971 but according to the pictures I had the opportunity to see from the period magazines, I don't remember any Miura P400S "alongside the SV #4846".
And in addition, Miura #4846 was not shown on the Lamborghini Stand, but on the Bertone stand.

As a French speaking guy, in English langage "Alongside" means for me : "quite close" -" a few meter further", not a few hundred meter further (I'm probably wrong, but my understanding of using "alongside" in a car Motorshow = displayed on the same Stand : is correct - displayed in another Stand=is improper wording)
So Joe, can you clarify your purpose and show us pictures of Miura #4808 "alongside the SV #4846" and precising if you meant same location, same event, but on the Lamborghini stand, not on the Bertone stand ?
With if possible - and in order to illustrate your explanation - something different than the well-known picture of a B&W picture showing an anonymous white-looking Miura P400S supposed to be waiting for being installed on the Geneva 1971 Lamborghini stand.... A picture during the open-to-public period would be perfect.

 

here is how #4808 was reported to me as being on 1971 Lamborghini stand, with this picture… but no more clue !


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NOT AT ALL... as I never written this nor did I post such pic… the pic is of JOTA coming from period period magazine of '70s


here is what I wrote :

 

There is a Rumor about this, but I have no proof in hands… as I never investigate that topic "chassis", and many years ago I could have checked the car, but was in hurry , it was not my priority… sorry !

What is sure at 100% is about the engine in #5092 which is a restamped engine number...

 

Thanks. So you saw the sump 2 weeks ago of 4956/5100 (the 1st made), and I presume you saw the whole car too, so did it have SV or SVJ bodywork? Also in that post you said it claims to have a dry sump, but although you saw it you did not confirm whether or not if it actually has a dry sump, so may I ask if it does or not?

 

So am I correct in thinking that you think 4878 was originally built with a wet sump engine, which Dembiermont had a lubrication problem with, which got replaced by the factory with a refurbished engine made with 1967 and 1969 components and a factory dry sump conversion?

 

4956/5100 (the 1st made) was under car cover, so I can't answer you

engine out and dismantled… so you have the answer…

if one day in the future, I saw it completely with its engine… I will let you know !

 

Thank you Olivier, but the photo you are showing is precisely the one I mentioned in my last post and it was the one that I did not want to see again...
This B&W picture is well known, but in my opinion is too close to the people who published it some years ago, when they were in charge to sell this Miura #4808. It can be easily understood that they were very motivated to promote the sale of this Miura, in a then already modified version.
Showing this picture when it was fully original in its P400S guise, they may be entirely right. But factual evidence is always better than unfounded ads.
But I remain convinced that someone will be able to find us, at a time or another, a photo of the Lamborghini stand at the 1971 Geneva Motor Show.
And why not also discovering in the future a never-seen period color picture of the Bertone stand of this same year, in order to definitively understand and agree about its rims & rocker panels original colors : gold or silver ? of Miura SV #4846...

 

I share the material I have, if it comes to change one day I will either revise or complete...

 

Off-hand, I actually remember Joe's SCM writeup of 4808 years ago. If I recall, the first sentence was: "To begin with, this is a made-up car." Funny.

RE 4808: I hope the owner achieves the restoration he desires, and hopefully keeps this car out of the restoration shop for good.

Just based on my own experience, I've lent a modified car to a major manufacturer to display at an international show before. A nice honor, to be sure, but IMHO in no way is it now a "Factory Sanctioned" version. Auto manufacturers are interested in selling new cars to wide-eyed customers, and will do what it takes to get some good PR. That being my opinion on how I value cars, I'd agree that there is a segment of the population who can be convinced it's worth more for that reason, much in the same light that some cars previously owned by a dead actor are worth more. Just my dime's worth of near-worthless information.

 

It will be restored by Polo Storico and the place where it will reside then… it will be for a long time among one of the topest collection worldwide...

 

I am surprised, shocked even that Polo Storico will be restoring 4808 in the non factory modified state, especially as I have read, but don't know if correct, that PS will not certify a car that is not matching numbers even if it has a correct type engine/gearbox, unless they were changed under warranty by or overseen by the factory. Ferrari Classiche will certify a car if it is not matching numbers if it has correct tipo engine/gearbox.