Thank you SFF!! You’ve given me hope for an exciting 2020 lineup as I was already excited at the likely 2019 cars - a re imagining of the F40 using V8TT with hybrid and aero technologies would be great but I’d be most delighted with inspiration from the 288GTO- a truly beautiful car in person... or the rawness of the mightly F50 with a targa top and brutal noise ...... Santa , pleeeeeeeeeez?!!! Merry Xmas to all and v exciting times ahead for those that stuck with ferrari when allocation disappointments lured others away to Mac... ye of faith shall be rewarded !!! Forza ferrari!
From a design standpoint, the F40 or any other classic or vintage Ferrari does not need to be re-imagined or copied. I can see why from a business standpoint though. Still waiting for Manzoni to make a unique mark moving forward. Inspiration should come from nature and your own talent/imagination and not prior successful examples from other design houses. I know others have done this before with varying amount of success especially the same design house rehashing their last design which is unbearably common. Probably not what others want to hear but I'd rather see something completely new yet unmistakably Ferrari but I fear he does not have the design chops for it yet.
No, not intending to be harsh just honest. Pista is beautiful but for the most part an updated 458 PF design with the same interior. The Monza is awful compared to the historic beauties but is a good investment opportunity. You didn't mention LaF but that was an open completion and very similar to the PF entry. Don't get me wrong, all Ferrari's are way better in real life than any photo but Manzoni has yet to really deliver IMO. He started out with just minor changes like flaps and gills on top of the 458 base then went nuts on aero on the F12 base and now a very flat featureless Monza. I think he's finding his way too slowly. That's my honest opinion and I am a big fan of Ferrari and probably one of the few that pays cash and holds. Remaking older designs is weak don't you think?
Designs, yes. But to reinvisage a car’s essence, or soul, may be a pinnacle achievement amongst automotive dreams of this era. The basic equation of its driving behavior. In my humble opinion, that takes a designer possessing a touch of genius. Grew up after the Golden Era of ‘70s and ‘80s Ferraris, but was blessed as I had access to experience them. Personally, there would be no greater ‘drive’ than a modernized F40, Daytona, or 288GTO. Just a personal expression of desire as a customer. And somehow sense that Manzoni is finding that essence attributed to Materazzi and the designers of that era. But given modern corporate constraints, it may take a near monastic environment in which to do so. Wish him the best in finding the ‘brushes’ of essence. (I mean this reply with the deepest respect to you. As most forums these days seem to be an environment of constant and agressive jousting.)
No problem. Glad that you had experienced the real deals. Much more of an achievement as a designer to create than to modernize. Authoring your own vision and achieving industry acclaim and acceptance is most noble.
Yes. An interview I’ll never forget: Nicola Materazzi on the creation of the F40. Secrets of essence. Noble, indeed. I’ll never forget these gentlemen. (Caption translations available in English on YouTube page.) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
How his voice broke into tears at the memory of Enzo’s praise at the ‘clarity of ideas’ at the 5:40 mark. What is manufacturing, progress, and design if it doesn’t elicit tears decades later..
Given this is a subjective conversation as is always the case talking about design, let me propose an alternate view - not necessarily to challenge you but to add context to a subjective discussion? The clever thing about Manzoni’s approach is the marriage of form and function. Higher power needs more cooling, and better aerodynamics. Yet a Ferrari must bear the signature of a Ferrari in its aesthetics. No Ferrari should shun aesthetics in the way McLaren seemed to do with the Senna (again subjective but nevertheless a widely held view). That is not to say every Ferrari has been successful (308 GT4, 400, F512M to name a few of the more unloved designs) just that they at least try to make the car inspire the driver by the way it looks as well as sounds and drives. No designer of Ferraris has had to deal with such extreme elements, requiring accommodation on the exterior skin before. The whole concept of moving the design team in-house was to allow for a more seamless development process between aerodynamic styling and engineering development. The Pista is highly aerodynamically efficient, yet still avoided the use of moving and raised wings, in direct contrast to McLaren and Porsche. It has been universally praised and is actually quite hard to criticise in terms of appearance - I have hardly read any view that decries it. Sure, it is based on the Pininfarina 458 body but that is only part of the long-established programme, not a fair basis for criticism. Until we see an all-new mid engined V8 platform it’s impossible to judge Manzoni negatively in this regard. For the design scope of the Pista it is hard to think how he could have done better and he certainly surpassed expectation. Travelling further back, the 488 was also an update of the 458. My initial reaction on seeing the 488 was very positive and it was an easy decision for me to purchase. The 488 was not universally praised and among 458 buyers and there was a definite cohort that preferred their existing car. It was perhaps a 50/50 split. However, the 430, being the last ‘2nd design on the same platform V8’ was also not universally liked and was, in my view, less successful than the 488. The 458 was voluptuous and lithe, Manzoni chose a more aggressive and masculine approach for the 488, which needed to accommodate added cooling. This provided a neat contrast for buyers, many of whom had owned a 458 before - there was a reason to change because the whole feeling of the car with the new turbo motor, Ferrari’s clever torque management and aggressive new clothes was one literally shouting ‘high performance’! It was smart and commercial design thinking and the fact the car looked appealing and sold well in the face of more competition than ever before has to be seen as a design success. I believe the 488 to be a much more successful design than Pininfarina’s last attempt at the same brief - the 430. Even more controversial was the 812. I loved that car from the first moment. I saw it in the flesh first and maybe that helped me. Many who disliked it in photos have come to enjoy it with repeated sighting of the real car in the flesh. It is highly aerodynamic, rather than trying to hide Ferrari’s current max aero/max beauty approach he decided to celebrate it. To some it is still over-wrought, but from a design perspective I think it has some integrity - it doesn’t apologise for itself, it flows and seems to be a design in balance with itself. It has a unique look and given that it too is based off the preceding car, in this case the F12, it looks quite different in substance and tone to the previous car. Many people feel this car is a ’grower’, which to me is like the musical equivalent of listening to an album the first time with mild disappointment before being captivated by the same music after repeated listening over many years to come. You may not like the appearance of the 812 but I believe it is hard to say it is not an honest design with a high degree of integrity. It doesn’t apologise. Contrast that with one of my pet hate designs, the McLaren 650. That car was clearly based from the 12C (a design which I actually liked and felt suited McLaren’s personality). Then came an all-new designer with a great pedigree, who promptly rushed through a make-over with the company saying (in not so many words) that the original car was rushed and should never have been signed off. So then we were served a 12C with new wheels, extra plastic bits and a face transplant that looked like it belonged to a completely different car. Not cool IMO. So far Manzoni’s designs have had to all be new cars on existing platforms and he has been better than McLaren by far and better than Pininfarina’s F430 and Scuderia too. The final piece in the puzzle so far is the Monza. This car is not flat and boring. I saw it in the TM studio and is it ever stunning. It is dripping with details and I can guarantee the first one that turns up at cars and coffee (whatever it is that you stateside buddies do!) will steal the show. It is so beautiful in the flesh that you literally cannot take your eyes off its voluptuous curves and beautiful details. I can imagine Manzoni feeling a little irritated at some of the criticism from owners of Pininfarina Ferraris that his designs are too aero-influenced and aggressive. I suspect he and his team put their full heart and soul into their work, the Monza is almost a ‘stick that in your pipe’ to those people. But no doubt he is more mature than I would be and he just wanted to build a beautiful car. Given the Icona brief I think they absolutely nailed it. And to me it answers the F40 reimagined question perfectly. Copying previous designs, bad, taking inspiration from previous designs, very very good. The Monza is clearly inspired by cars like the original Testarossa but doesn’t actually look like it or take many of that car’s key design features. Instead it looks both modern yet influenced by a style of motoring from Ferrari’s (and motoring in general’s) glory years - the age of the gentleman racer. Imagine driving an 800hp front-engined V12 with no A-pillars giving amazing visibility and stunning sound over the Alps or through a canyon. It’s a beautiful modern car that offers a long-lost driving experience and simultaneously launches a new line of Ferrari high-margin and highly-desirable cars. I think he has done a so-far wonderful job, with one caveat. Perhaps his greatest test is his first all-new platform, where he does not have the restrictions of designing a new car on top of someone else’s handiwork. I think he’ll nail it and I cannot see any evidence from his previous work with Ferrari that that will not prove to be true.
Absolutely. During a conference, Mr Manzoni said that, at Ferrari, one must never forget about the past but, at the same time, do everything to not become one of its "victims". Conceptual inspiration and throwbacks are the best way to succeed and find a balance (LaFerrari and Sharknose, J50 and 126 are a couple of examples mentioned and explained during said conference).
Thank you for the thoughtful discussion. Certainly everyone whose serious about Ferrari has deep opinions and beauty is very subjective. However, the 488 and 812 designs have not been received very well from my observations of the industry. The Monza is in a whole different class so would need to be looked at with a different set of glasses. Pictures will never do a Ferrari justice but I don't get using so much of the F12B/F12tdf/812s basics in a car of such limited quantity and hypercar cost. Yet it will make money for both the buyers and Ferrari. The concept of reimagining older cars just seems like a dull objective so I don't get the whole Icona thing. The F40 from the 288 is an example of taking charge with a successful design with both beauty and performance. Best.
Thank you for the depth of your insight. At Ferrari. And the world. A fork. A divergence of old and new. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What a wonderful interview. So much of why we love cars, and why heritage is important is contained right there. We love these cars partly because they are made by brilliant people who love engineering, design and performance even more than we do. I am starting to think I should buy an F40 (even before watching this). The video didn’t help....!
Sorry for double posting, but I can't edit the message above. Here's the video (It's in italian, but I can work on a transcript if someone's interested).
I can agree completely. I would prefer "a new F40" to be reborn in ideas and fierce, raw character instead of in the restyling of the legendary F40. That is why I wondered whether a new model will be "raw and fierce" regular production BigBrother (then I think no F40 style "wing") or just an icona range toy well resembling the legendary car.
The only way I could see a 488 facelift after the Pista would be if the new Ferrari chief wanted to change some things from the direction of his late predecessor. If that's the case, it would be only a one or two year run. I really don't think this is likely, since the reveal of the roadmap (Which any of you can read, as it's posted earlier in this thread). But what the Official Ferrari Roadmap makes clear is that there will be a 488 replacement on the new modular chassis, and it will be a rear-mid V6, certainly with turbos, and perhaps with some level of hybrid capability. What you are calling the BB= Big Brother - the new "supercar in the standard range" - will be a rear-mid turbo V8 hybrid. I think the heavily camouflaged car is most likely the new standard range rear-mid V8 turbo/hybrid supercar. Why go to so much trouble to hide it if it's not a design that is close to production? It is something after the earlier 488 test mules, which just had the adhesive camouflage. Then there are the electrical warnings. There is also the possibility that it could be the rear-mid V6 turbo, and the level of hybridization is more than I expected! The test mule audios did sound like V8's, but they were mules, so no telling, really.
Would you buy Icona F40 if it is mere bodywork? My wish is Weight reduction. No hybrid but pista engine Price under 1 mil and price matters most to me but I doubt it. Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
Great insight into the Ferrari 'scene' however I would suggest that Flavio Manzoni already had "his greatest test in his first all-new platform." That Ferrari of course was the Portofino. However I think there was a problem in that the design did not go far enough. This problem was compounded with the design of the new mid-engine Ferrari V8 model. When Louis Camilleri took over the helm at Ferrari he was not happy with the new ME Ferrari. I believe the reason you see a delay in it's arrival is a demand for great distance between the new design and the old 488 design that it is replacing. When Luca di Montezmolo hired Flavio Manzoni it was with the understanding that he could create his own design team. One important stipulation however was that Ferrari designs should be more bold and aggressive. Perhaps a new direction but the underlying feeling should still clearly say "Ferrari". Flavio Manzoni has said that one of the great challenges when working at Ferrari is the high premium placed on the aero function of the design and this in turn makes certain compromises necessary. One of the biggest challenges with a new design direction is going to far too soon and then the customer doesn't want to join you. Conversely if you don't go far enough then there is no incentive to 'trade up'. I think Flavio Manzoni was cautious with the Portofino which is perhaps understandable since most of those buyers are new to Ferrari. The ME V8 is a different situation and demands a more bold design statement. The result with the Monza inspires great confidence that there is much untapped and rich potential in future new Ferrari designs. The ME's delay can only mean that Flavio Manzoni is back pushing those design boundaries in search of a greater glory than the 'nice' Portofino provided...
I think it's difficult to judge how the designs of today will be viewed in the future. It's much easier to discuss past designs. For we have the luxury of perspective borne simply out of time and experience. Was the F40 considered a design masterpiece when it appeared? (It sure was by me!) I remember reading several reviews that proclaimed things like the contemporary Testarossa is the real design champion, and the F40 is a car that is neither at home on the street, nor on the track. Fast forward 31 years and what do we say? The F40 is a masterpiece! Its an icon! (the Testarossa aged pretty well too!). What will we say about the designs of today in the future? It's really impossible to tell. But, I think Mr. Manzoni (and team!) has done a splendid job. I think its good to get different opinions and it's good to hear from those who are skeptical, but to my eyes, this man is very talented. My counterpoint to those who are perhaps a little let down with his designs so far: Mr. Manzoni and team have shown us what they can do with an existing platform: 458 Speciale, 488 GTB, 488 Pista. The Pista looks like a different car. The Speciale is a great more sporting counter point to the elegance of the Italia. I think the GTB is a very good looking car- a more muscular evolution of the Italia. His update to the FF is transformative. I had an FF and everyone I know was puzzled with the design. Not so the GTC4. They turned the F12b into one of the all time greats with the F12tdf. And keep in mind his team did ½ the F12b (I think the front). 812 had some mixed reactions, but then again, I remember the F12b having those regarding the rear end. Seeing the 812 in person did not win me over at first, but the more I've seen it, the more I've come to appreciate it. I actually he did something amazing here. He took the same hard points: F12b, F12tdf, 812 and made 3 very good looking cars that have distinctive personalities. At a distance can you really tell the difference between a 599 GTB and GTO? How about a 550 and 575? (aside from wheels). Play this game with the 360/430 vs the 458/488 and you can see how they are now much more skilled at generating different looks from the same platform. Then, we can take a look at what they did with the new GT platform: the Portofino. I can see many of his themes but it is not some mess. It's a handsome, coherent whole. I disagree he didn't go far enough with the Portofino. I think the Portofino is a big step forward from the California and T with this car. At least to my eyes, its much more cohesive and sleeker than the California, and its not as generic looking as the T. It looks more like a super GT. It manages the rare trick of being a folding hardtop that looks perhaps better with the top up. I think it's very impressive. And also appropriate for the market segment. As to the Monza, I have seen this car in person. It is simply gorgeous. I knew it was going to be beautiful, but I was still not prepared for just how beautiful this shape is. It comes off as a completely a modern interpretation of historic design themes. I think that is quite different than being slave to retro styling elements. It held me spell bound for some time. Just like the F40, where the F40 looks fairly angular in pictures and then you notice in person the F40 has little curves all other the place that give it real beauty to go along with the brutality of its general shape. Some things you don't get from pictures. The slope of the hood is quite extreme. The car actually has a gentle bow/ curve from left to right so its not so flat looking. I find it astounding he can do cars like the Pista, 812, even the Portofino with cutting edges, so modern, so aggressive, with many lines, and then turn around and draw this smooth, simple shape that evokes the feelings of past great designs, yet isn't some pastiche. If you have not yet seen the Monza in person, I think when you do, you will be very pleased. It's a very very beautiful shape. Also, the Monza is part of a limited series that is specifically intended to reference the feelings of past designs- not the designs themselves. So the shapes we see will remain special and not something they will repeat over and over. Coming back to the actual topic - I think if this "Big Brother" is influenced by the F40, in terms of its design, it should not be so literal. The F40 came out and put the world on its ear because it was the embodiment of Mr. Enzo Ferrari's desire to have "instant speed" and the fastest car with racing technology. They shouldn't revisit the look. The F40 is just too iconic. Rather, I think the look should be 100% forward looking. They can take inspiration from the F40 if this car breaks some records. What jumps to my mind is speed. It's very easy to write on the computer, but I think they should do something that makes everyone say "OMG!" Just like when the F40 hit 201 MPH in 1987. That made everyone sit up and take notice. Lately the competition has been showing some good fight. So I say, take the fight right back to them! How about a top speed of 301 MPH. I think it should be as crazy for today's world as the F40 was back in 1987. It should have people saying: too extreme for the road. My warmest wishes for happy holidays to everyone!
And what is MonzaSP1 and SP2 to the 812? (I can even like the design targeting Ferrari collectors and special clients, but I wouldn't exchange the original 812superfast for the SP1 or SP2.) I wish everybody, their dreams come true. Weight reduction is a common wish for Christmas/New Year, so +1 (as it comes to the car ).
