Boeing 707 - New Haynes Manual | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Boeing 707 - New Haynes Manual

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by Gatorrari, Jun 29, 2018.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    7,911
    Shoreline,Washington
    Full Name:
    Robert Parks
    I can't believe that I started working in the 777 program 28 years ago! Doesn't seem that long ago! When we were told that the airplane would be designed ALL ON THE COMPUTER, the response was ,"Yeah, that won't happen". But that's exactly what happened. THAT was a great program and managed by some great people and produced a great airplane.
     
  2. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Bob- That is when Desert Shield started, so both of us have reason to remember 1990.
     
  3. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 27, 2004
    15,924
    Georgia
    Full Name:
    Jim Pernikoff
    I headed to Seattle to work on the 777 in June 1991, so as you say, it will be 28 years in June. I'll admit that it doesn't seem that long ago. I still think of the 777 as a "new airplane"!
     
  4. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    7,911
    Shoreline,Washington
    Full Name:
    Robert Parks
    Taz, I think that you may have had a bit more excitement than I did at that time. Where were you and what were you doing?
     
  5. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    7,911
    Shoreline,Washington
    Full Name:
    Robert Parks
    I do too.
     
  6. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    Bob- We took the first contingent of F-111Fs to Taif, Saudi Arabia in August 1990. Loaded with GBU-15s and GBU-24s, plus external fuel tanks, because there were no PGMs in Saudi Arabia that early in Desert Shield. We were escorted there non-stop by KC-10s, which carried our support personnel and a bunch of spare parts. Around 10 hours for the trip, with multiple aerial refuelings.
     
  7. ralfabco

    ralfabco Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 1, 2002
    28,029
    Dixie
    Full Name:
    Itamar Ben-Gvir
    As a kid I flew on a Delta Convair 880.

    Recently, I had the Convair postcard I collected, in my room.
     
  8. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    7,911
    Shoreline,Washington
    Full Name:
    Robert Parks
    Yeah, we had fun once in a while. That FlyThru tool identified a lot of interferences and was invaluable in getting everything installed. I may have mentioned it before but the first time we put everything , wheel well, wheel well doors, and landing gear, into the CATIA to check the retraction of the main landing gear, the math that was being done in micro seconds when all that stuff was put into motion bowled me over. We did find some interferences, too. The same thing was done with the TE flap retraction sequence. Incredible!
     
  9. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 27, 2004
    15,924
    Georgia
    Full Name:
    Jim Pernikoff
    Better to find the interferences in the computer before finding them in the real parts. That was the real beauty of the electronic mockup. I understand that when they actually put ship #1 together, it fit like a glove.
     
  10. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    7,911
    Shoreline,Washington
    Full Name:
    Robert Parks
    Correct, Jim.The computer knocked off many months of manual design and a physical mock up to iron out all the kinks. It went right the first time.We got rid of the full size Master Model because all the lofting data was in the computer and physical stretch form dies, drill jigs, trim jigs, etc. were eliminated . They were digitally all there for the taking. When we tried to produce some parts in CATIA for the 747, they didn't fit because of the disparity in tolerances. The 747 was .03, the CATIA was 0.00, effectively. That entire program was an absolute joy to be a part of.
     
  11. Jaguar36

    Jaguar36 Formula Junior

    Nov 8, 2010
    834
    Cherry Hill, NJ
    Flythru has been replaced by a new (well new as of like 2006) in house program, IVT on the commercial side. Defense side uses a Siemens product that similar. They both kinda suck though. Takes far to long to load the stuff that you need. Most of the time having a nice well done iso view would be sufficient and its a heck of alot quicker and easier to just look at drawing hanging on your wall.

    The interference stuff is all great... as long as the designers use it.
     
  12. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 27, 2004
    15,924
    Georgia
    Full Name:
    Jim Pernikoff
    Another excellent new book on the 707, also from Britain. This one includes full coverage of the C-135 series as well. Particularly interesting are charts of every control panel in the cockpit, with all knobs, switches, levers and lights identified; even the flight attendants' panel in the cabin is included. There is also a chapter giving the complete history of the 707-138 now owned by John Travolta.

    The book is decidedly pro-British; the author admits having problems with American claims that the 707 was the "first commercially-successful jetliner", chalking that up to American "parochialism". He has extensive coverage of early U.S. jet-engine development, noting that all these engines, including the 707's, were heavily based on British designs. And he is critical of Boeing's vertical tail design and the "Dutch roll" incidents and accidents that it caused, noting that Boeing vertical tails had been inadequate going all the way back to the 307 Stratoliner! But if you ignore the author's apparent bias, it's a very complete and thorough book.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
    NürScud likes this.
  13. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    7,911
    Shoreline,Washington
    Full Name:
    Robert Parks
    Yeah, I experienced the same bias from the British engineers that came to Boeing in the 50's and 60's. The Dutch Roll mode wasn't caused by the tail, it was caused (and predicted by a German ex-patriot engineer, Henry Quenzler) by the over-stabilizing effect that 7 deg. of dihedral had when coupled to 35 deg. of sweepback. Both are stabilizing features in a configuration. He said that the 707 was a "stupidity" in the way it was designed. Henry was Chief Engineer at Dornier and had a lot to do with the DO 332 "push-pull fighter " and was one of its main test pilots. Did the author comment on the fixes that were made to the tails, like they were on done on B-17E, B314, and take a look at the B-47, B-52, B747, B757,B767, B777, and 787, that never needed a fix. I guess that the Comet was an initial success early on but you can't hang on to that title if your airplane falls apart after a few cycles.
     
  14. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    7,911
    Shoreline,Washington
    Full Name:
    Robert Parks
    Typo, should have typed DO-335
     
  15. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    He should have said the first commercially successful jet airliner that did not explode from metal fatigue.
     
  16. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    7,911
    Shoreline,Washington
    Full Name:
    Robert Parks
    Yes, Tay. I remember looking at photos of the many 3/32nd diameter rivets around the perimeter of the ADF window . Too close together, and a crack starting in the corner the radius of which was too small for the window. WW2 techniques that did not tolerate pressurized structures. However, the Brits did a magnanimous thing to publish their mistake and saved a lot of grief down the line. Boeing certainly profited from it.
     
  17. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 27, 2004
    15,924
    Georgia
    Full Name:
    Jim Pernikoff
    I don't think the Comet would ever have really been a commercial success - even the stretched Comet 4 didn't carry as many people as a 707. Although the early 707s and DC-8s weren't sardine cans like today's jetliners, they still carried a lot more people than the other early jetliners. The higher capacity is what made flying more affordable, and more accessible.
     
  18. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 27, 2004
    15,924
    Georgia
    Full Name:
    Jim Pernikoff
    The new March issue of "Air & Space/Smithsonian" has an article about the 707, highlighting its first revenue flight from New York to Paris in October 1958. Apparently there is a new permanent exhibit devoted to the 707 at the Cradle of Aviation Museum in Garden City, NY.
     
  19. Tcar

    Tcar F1 Rookie

    Especially the later DC-8... a third longer than the original (only worked because of the tall landing gear...).
    Couldn't do that with the 707 as the gear was too short to rotate if the plane was longer.

    Retired United captain said that if you sat in the last row of the -8 and all the curtains were open to the front, you could see the tube flex in turbulence.
     
  20. Gatorrari

    Gatorrari F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 27, 2004
    15,924
    Georgia
    Full Name:
    Jim Pernikoff
    I can believe that. It's probably also true of the 757-300, a version I've never flown in, which is closest in relative appearance to the stretched DC-8s among current jetliners. My last DC-8 flight was in a United -71 that I flew from Seattle to Atlanta, with a stop in Denver.

    And regarding seeing all the way from back to front, I once sat in the front row of an A300 that was all-economy and had no cabin dividers. When I turned around and looked back, it looked more like an auditorium or a movie theater than an airline cabin!
     
  21. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    7,911
    Shoreline,Washington
    Full Name:
    Robert Parks
    The B-24 would flex in flight...in a lot of directions. I rode in the rear in a stretched DC-8 and observed the twists and bending in the fuselage. Somewhere i have a photo looking from in front of a B-52 making a steep banking turn and the forward fuselage is twisting a good 4 deg more than the horizontal stab. If things don't flex, they break.
     
  22. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    7,911
    Shoreline,Washington
    Full Name:
    Robert Parks
    The story of the Comet again. Not big enough, not fast enough, and not on target design wise. Like burying the engines in the most volumetric area of the wing and hanging "slipper tanks" off the wings to carry enough fuel to make the range...that was still too short, and a too conservative wing sweep to get better cruise Mach.
     
  23. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    The Nimrod variant had a long service life from 1969-2011 or so. They cured the problems and the size was fine for maritime patrol. Eventually replaced with P-8s.
     
  24. afterburner

    afterburner F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jun 20, 2008
    3,197
    Hong Kong
    My father, a retired Swissair (among others, DC-8) pilot, confirmed this.
     

Share This Page