Possible purchase, 1990 348ts

Hi all. I went and saw this car today. Possible first Ferrari for me. I was unable to get it out to drive it as it is in an underground garage at the back of about 20 other cars in storage. However, the owner was more than willing to arrange a day for a drive, he just needed some time to move things around.

I’ll post as many photos as I have and give what information I have. I would love some opinions on a realistic value for this car. I’m not looking to have a museum piece, I want a car I can drive and wrench on. I intends to service it myself and am a competent home mechanic.

The car does start right up with no effort and idles well. Goes in to gear and moves, but I couldn’t go drive to see how it shifts etc. All lights and switches work, windows go up and down, but are slow, pop up lights come up and turn on easily. Everything is clean but it has the look of a car that has been sitting a long time, though I am told it was out on the road a few weeks ago.

The only history of this car is the following story, there are no receipts or records do any kind: the current owner bought the remnants of a small local car museum/collection. A total of about 58 cars. Maybe half of them are now left and the others have been sold. This car has been with its current owner for about a year. It shows 25k miles on the clock.

I notice the following: definitely would need an engine out service, and most likely fresh fluids and chassis lube all around. The leather on the door panels has shrunk a little and would need to be conditioned and have the edges tucked back in in a few areas, but is in otherwise good condition. Headliner needs to be re-glued as it has some areas sagging a little. Paint is in very good condition all around (there is a small blemish near the antenna, and that antenna is not looking very factory and is loose). Engine bay is very clean and it does not appear to leak oil. The throttle pedal feels very stiff, like very very stiff, but turning the throttle body by hand it moves freely - probably cable lube would help this? The owner said he caught someone who tried to pull the stereo out of the dash but they ran him off. It appears to have an aftermarket alarm possibly. There are no tool kits, or manuals that I could find with the car, but it does have a nice, fitted Ferrari car cover. One black key and one bare metal key are what the owner has for keys. Climate control head unit seems to function, but it was so cold there was no way for me to tell if the a/c was cooling the air or not. Likewise I didn’t run the car long enough to see if the heat works. But the fan changes with the different settings on the head unit.

That’s all I can think of at the moment, but I’m sure more will come back to me as things are discussed. Let me know what you all think!
Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

More photos
Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Interesting find. You remind me of me, a few months back. I too wanted to buy a Ferrari and the 348 was probably going to be the only one I could rationally afford. My objective was to get a car in good shape, no accidents, cleaner the better. My plan was to take it completely apart and restore it even if it didn't need it.

We bought a 92 TS in the end, very clean and I have since taken it apart and have learned quite a bit over the past 6 months.

Slow windows are normal. If you said they were going up fast I woudl say that is because they have been fixed. Most if not all 348s require a retrofit circuit for switching grounds if you want them to work right., So don;t worry about that!

If your car is not leaking that is a good sign! Most do. I am sure your car has had an engine out service done to it (or two), the red hoses on the front of the engine were probably changed at that time. Don't bother fretting about engine lights if they are on, the 348 CEL circuits are way to stringent, keeping the lights from coming on is like a game. The European spec versions didn't even have engine lights . Many 348s have the bulbs taken out so that you don;t have to look at them. If you want to know if your bulbs are actually in there just take a look during start up, both CELs should illuminate for a number of seconds during start up.

But aside from all the suggestions to look at this and look at that, the truth is it would be best to have the car tested to some degree. Compression and leak down on the engine tells a world of information. At 25k miles and no accidents the paint on that car should be factory. Measure the thickness everywhere!

Only you can decide if the overall condition is OK for what your expecting. A saggy roof liner and pulled back door leather sounds like the car lived in a hot climate, that would bother me.

One last note .... remember there are lots of 348s for sale, you don;t have to jump right away if your not comfortable. Go on Bring a Trailer.com and see what they have sold for these past few years. You can see lots of pictures as well for you to compare with.

I'm happy with mine!

 

Thanks for sharing 348steve! Actually that makes me feel a lot better. How has working on the car been? I’ve worked on many Audi’s and BMW’s from 80’s cars up to early 2000’s. I’m convinced that a Ferrari from this era isn’t going to be that different in terms of difficulty, just more expensive parts and of course the need to remove the whole rear engine/subframe to change the belts. I’m glad you’ve found one you love. I hope I can get there too!

 

Have leak down done. If it checks out and price is right go for it. My self I bought a late 90 but unlike some bought it not because its what I could afford its what I wanted, wanted for 25 years actually. Driving it has a very different feel than modern cars, different than other Ferrari that came after it as well, there is no question about that. Its a complete hoot. Not super car fast but around town on city streets its a total blast, actually is just a big go kart. It is also easy to work on it is mechanically simple and everything you could want from windows to steering rack to full engine out is on this forum with pictures and all.

Your probably looking at mid 50's? Just a guess. Really nice ones are low 60's, clapped out ones are mid 30's with well worn but decent ones in the high 40's low 50's. Just a ball park.

Many many parts are not actually ferrari parts so you can cross reference and find much cheaper parts. 02 sensor for example ferrari like $350 but its the same Bosh unit used in volvos for $85. Expect issues most are not any worse than an audi or similar if you do work yourself and xref parts. Its 25 years old so things happen.

Good luck!

 

The engine out will obviously factor in the value.

The missing toolkit and missing manuals will also have an effect on the price. You may not care now, but a future purist who you could end up selling to will.

 

Thanks Ferrarium, I’m glad to hear your take on it as well. It is reassuring to know there isn’t black magic involved in repairs ha ha. I love the 80’s-90’s V8 Ferrari’s. Love them. So I’m glad that the 348’s tends to hang out in values closer to what I can afford. A go-kart with that Marinelo V8 sound is exactly what I want. Ha ha. As far as prices go, how close is the Hagerty valuation tool? Does it translate in to real transactions closely? If I am going by the descriptions there, then I would say this car is a solid #3, maybe approaching #2. It’s a good car, but far from perfect. I also wondered, is it customary to use cost of pending belt services in the negotiations? It would need a fairly comprehensive go through as well, for all fluids and things too I think. Just food for thought. Thanks again!

 

Good point. I actually wish they were there too. I can live without them, but as I understand it complete toolkits and even manuals with original leather cases are quite expensive, IF they can be found.

There is a similar car on eBay right now for $59,000 obo that has all of those, plus the factory luggage set and is in immaculate condition. It is pushing toward a concours car but is due for a belt service as well. Plus the seller is offering free enclosed shipping to anywhere in the continental US at that price point. So I ask myself, where does this one sit for value then? If I factor in a little for missing manuals and tool kit, and the condition is not as nice as the eBay one, and also belt service (local Ferrari dealer quoted about $9,500, FYI. I don’t know of any independent Ferrari mechanics here isn’t Salt Lake City), then does that make the car I posted worth $40k? $45k?

Here is the eBay car for reference (I am in no way affiliated with this car, I’m just putting this link up for comparison purposes): https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F303049955837

 

With 25k on the clock and no records, you will likely want to go a little deeper than just a belt and tensioner service. (30k kit). Look up "TSB 10-34" basically, there was a garbage roller bearing used on the engine side that is replaced with a new ball one with a cage/shield on it. The oil pan comes off, the front cover comes off. It's deep. I'm just finishing mine. I have an '89 with 21k on it, so they're still out there with the bad bearings.

Image Unavailable, Please Login

The best advice I can give is to read as much as possible before jumping. There's a tremendous amount of knowledge and some really really good people here, sometimes it takes a little weeding, though.

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/348-engine-out-major.438576/ this is the thread to read if you're considering DIY'ing your own 30k. It's an excellent reference, especially half way down page 11 to about page 17. (he admits to installing the TSB bearing backward on the final couple pages.)

Good luck with you're hunt, it's scary as **** at times, but oh so worth it!

sjd

 

I agree with the above. With no service record you will want to take it apart. My car's last service record (major service) was only 7000m previous, but also 10 years ago. My leak down test showed #6 and #7 sharing a bit, each recording 12%. Compression was good in all cylinders. Either way I decided to take it down to the head gaskets, pull out all the valves, etc ... and attend to all bearings, guides, o-rings, yadda yadda. The head gasket is a special topic, if you ever get there be sure to look into the head gasket manufacturer issue. Here are a few pics of my car, when I got it and in its current state.
Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Famous last word !
I admire your tenacity but this statement is too optimistic. The additional degree of difficulty will be timing belt, cam timing, oil pump chain drive, oil pump bearing, flywheel grease, valve adjustment, TEVES ABS. And yes, the parts will be 5x more expensive, that will be correct.

But, a Ferrari 348 will be way cooler than anything from Bavaria of the same era, with a single possible exception of an E30 M3 (I miss that car).

 

Agreed, parts are expensive! We finished a Jaguar E Type last year from the ground up. I thought those parts were expensive, the Ferrari is in its own class. Luckily our valve train is perfect, guides, valves, seals, etc... if not a re-built top end can cost big time!!!!

 

This is pretty spot-on. The car your looking at would be a mid-50’s car if it had records/manuals/toolkit and was up to date on service. If this one has no major findings (they all need something), then 45-50k would be a fair buy IMO.

 

Steve thanks for the deeper look in to your car and current progress. Quite a project you have been working on by the look of it! Beautiful car as well. It looks like it is well on the way to becoming better than factory new when you are finished.

Ha ha. You speak the truth yelcab! That probably was a little too optimistic. I guess what I meant by that was that a devoted owner who wants to wrench on this car can learn to do it, that it won’t be needing all sorts of dealer exclusive diagnostic equipment etc. because at the end of the day it is operating on the same fundamental principals as other 90’s cars. But yes, a damn sight cooler than anything else! I’m certain I’ll have my “wrench” handed to me more than once when I begin working on it (if this ends up in my garage - but in any case, whichever one does end up in my garage). Perhaps I should be cautiously optimistic instead, ha ha.

Thanks also to Steved033 for the TSB advice. I had thought the same thing with no eveidence if those items having been updated.

And also thanks QSA for the pricing thoughts. I wasn’t too far off it sounds like. But it does make me wonder if I should just save a little bit longer and find a car that has the manuals, toolkit and maybe a recent major service. Hard to decide.

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts on the matter.

 

Just looking at the engine out service, if you can get a "needs a service" one sufficiently cheaper than another one that has had a "recent engine out service", I think it is better to go for the "needs a service" one then, when you do the service yourself (or you choose who is going to do it), you know it is done properly. Who knows how well the "recent engine out service" was done. I wouldn't worry about the tool kit or manuals (you can always buy them separately for not too much money).

 

I have that thought some times. The thought that if I do the work, I know it was done properly. I often think, who would care more than me that this job gets done properly? So that makes sense to me what you are saying. I guess one ends up spending the money (or the equivalent in time) either way, so you might as well know what was done and be sure of it. Makes sense. Thanks for your thoughts!

 

For the record, i'm 30+ hours in on mine, and i'm about to put the front covers on and finish the valve cover gasketing.

sjd

 

If I were to buy a car like this, I'd have to "buy it right." That said, I wouldn't go higher than $35-40k because there are way too many unknowns.

 

PPI can make it known but you can apend a lot of money doing so. ppi and compression and leak down can run up to 2k depending on whos doing it.

Sent from my LM-Q710(FGN) using FerrariChat.com mobile app

 

Wow! I have to ask then, do you have a thread about all that you are doing on yours? I’d love to read through it and follow your progress.

Interesting, because putting it in that range makes it become very tempting indeed. Though I’m inclined to think the current owner won’t see that as realistic price. Can you elaborate what you mean by “buy it right?” I’m not sure I follow.

Yes, I got a quote from the local dealer, it would be between $1,100-$1,200 to do ppi and compression, and when I asked about adding leak down testing, they only said that it would add a couple hours of labor on top of that. I’d be interested in an independent mechanic quoting me on those services, the trouble is, I don’t know of one who regularly works on Ferrari’s here in Utah.

 

I mean buy the car hoping for the best but expecting the worst. These cars can get very expensive and quickly. The seller knows that, and he's likely into this car for wholesale as he purchased a large collection of cars. He knows what he has, but in the same token he also knows what the marquee entails. The best case scenario you buy the car and put $5k into it and in the worst case it's easy to spend $30k.

I'm not trying to scare you away, these are great cars and nothing will give you the experience of a Ferrari. Sometimes more expensive cars in the short term are less expensive in the long run - so buy it right!

 

i've got some stuff on instagram, not much in terms of a writeup. I'll do one soon, but there's so much good info out there on pulling the engine with floor jacks, and Ernie wrote up that link above about your engine out better than I ever could have, and I've got another thread around here about the oiling hole in the chain tensioner.

For me, it's been the funny little things I've forgotten to order along the way, or the fact that to change a part i ordered, I had to disassemble something else and needed an oring or a gasket or something little...

sjd

 

LOVE the sub-frame leveler/balancer/equalizer/4-corner aligner

 

I'd say you MUST drive it first and see how you like the model. I had one for about a month and honestly being a Porsche guy and having the same year 1991 911 964 i couldn't believe that ferrari put out this car at the same time..it is just a pig to drive, strange steering, not put together well, even its sound wasn't that great- and this was a clean car with engine out just done- i hated that car, it was nice to get to experience it for a month but towards the end i felt it was a chore to even drive the thing. so happy i sold it- Of course we each have different opinions so maybe you will like it.