Hello everybody, Let's see if someone can give me a straight answer on setting proper torque on a 328 head. According to the 308 QV/328 GTS workshop manual, it shows one tightening technique for the 308 QV(pages B38 & B39) and another for the 328(pages B50 & B51). Now...if you go to table M4, in the same manual, it points out that heads should be torqued at 10 Kg/m on both engines. Can I go either ways? I have also seen the service bulleting on this matter( it shows the "degree technique") Would appreciate getting to the point by someone who really knows the answer instead of confusing guessing and supposing "this or that". Thanks in advance, John.
Found this searching: day, April 17, 2005 11:46 PM Print this thread View thread in raw text format 18 April 2005 To Tom Manchester: Are you in possession of the original factory shop manual? Because if you are, then you would understand that torquing the cylinder head of a 328 is not just a matter of achieving a certain value on the torque wrench. It actually requires hitting a torque value of 45 N-m (4.5 kg-m) then turning the nuts a total of 120 degrees further. So firstly, the figure of 10 kg-m seems inaccurate since the factory calls for 4.5 Kg-m initial tightening. How to measure the additional 120 degrees of rotation is the trick. You should order the goniometer wrench (USAG item 830). It might be difficult to obtain but you can try and make do with the magic of a digital camera, printer, an old CD, and a protractor. First, snap a photo of a standard protractor. On your computer, use Microsoft's photo editor to resize the photo to the point wherein the half circle fits on a CD. By printing two shots, you can complete the 360 degree marking. Stick these to the CD. Spread white glue on the paper surface of the printout to make it oil resistant. Let it dry (homage to Disney's Art Attack show!). Cut out a hole to let the 1/2" drive of your flex handle wrench fit dead center. Using a drive extender, fit these to the AV 1393. With a wire pointer fitted to a fixed point near the head nut you're working on, you can now rotate the nut a little at a time to achieve the full 120 degree added rotation. Best to do it in 20 degree intervals. That's about all the room the head contours would allow anyway. Going through the complete tightening sequence six times, you should approximate better the correct tightening without snapping anything. Good luck and hope you have a nice time driving your car. Cheers!
I went so far as to buy an angle gauge (goniometer) I think you will find it extremely awkward and difficult to use accurately with the adapter given the design of the 4 valve heads. My car is a 308 and it wasn't until after I bought the tool that I realized I was reading the wrong page in the manual but having played with it I imagine that if I had a 328 I would probably just go with the 10 kgm and a torque wrench which is what I am doing on mine. Sorry, I know this isn't the definitive answer you are looking for but thought I would at least give my impression of the tool. It's pretty unwieldy.
Thanks for the reply!!! I've had my heads off several times(this is the second time). Using the degree system is not new to me, I'm very familiar with European gas and diesel engines, all use this method(I live in Spain). Now, I have to say that using the torque wrench is easier and if I can go that way that's what I prefer. The first time I took the heads off I used degrees when refitting this time I used torque. Just wanted confirmation that these two methods are equivalent, since the engine is out at present time, re-torqueing is not a problem at all. Thanks for the replies Best from Spain
Afternoon, Thanks for your reply, I already know the method, but my question has not been answered. If you go to the pages and table in the manuals I have pointed out, you can see different approaches to the same subject. The question is... can you go either way? John.
That manual has several inaccuracies. The one downfall of the 328 engine was the head studs. It was an experiment that failed and was the one Ferrari engine in many years that had head gasket problems because of it. I convert all 3.2 engines I take apart to 11 mm studs like the all the other engines and go back to the earlier head torquing method. It requires redrilling the head stud holes to 29/64.
I get the studs made by ARP but they are the same design as QV or F40. I have my own gaskets made. The factory Elring gaskets are now made in Spain from a different material and they are junk. It is why Dave Helms now offers a line of head gaskets.
That's one harsh judgment against a reputable german gasket manufacturer, who keeps his quality standards even in his Spain facilities. So allow me ask you to be more detailed. Why are they junk? And what happens if using them? Edit: I cannot find headgaskets on SRI. Best Regards and thanks in advance. Martin
Well known problem. Not going to argue it here with a bunch of amateurs. I am not here to prove everything I say. You can accept it or not but I have lots better to do and don't live to argue. Call Dave. He has a whole line of head gaskets. Made as a direct result of the experience of many professionals with the Spanish made Elrings.
Good morning and thanks for the reply, That's the answer i was expecting. I'm not an amateur mechanic, been in the business since I was 9, although it's the first Ferrari I play with. Based on my experience, this torque technique was odd from the beginning. 10Kg/m is too much for a 10mm stud, on the other hand, degree technique is used on elastic studs. Studs have to be measured prior to assembly, and if they are "stretched" beyond manufactures specs, you replace them. This particular point is not mentioned in the manual at all, making the whole situation awkward. With this said, I find your statement very logical, that is 11mm studs. Do you recommend having them made or buying them( I prefer having them made, it's a lot cheaper). Last question, do you have the link on head gaskets. Here in Spain I can have them custom made if necessary, yet I don't have the specs in material and fabrication technique (for example: multi layer, stainless steel, reinforcements...etc.) Best from Spain and thanks John.
Morning Martin, Hello from sunny Spain. Don't want to argue about quality and don't want to offend anybody, but when you're in this business you eventually realize how it works and how big companies go...It's all about the profit. SKF was known to be bullet proof...not any more. This statement is a fact, not a guess. I have close friends who are SKF dealers. Specific bearings (very expensive), are built following very precise techniques and steel quality is closely looked at. Now... cheap, common, regular bearings are manufactured all over the world, yes, under SKF standards, but these "standards" are not strict at all. As said before, don't want to offend, yet the truth is the truth. Best from Spain, John.
Hi John, from amateur to amateur : talking about SKF. A few years ago they introduced the 'Explorer'-series as an improved version of their bearings. Meanwhile most common sizes are available. What do you think of these? We use them since 2009 in our designs and I cannot remember one single failure. And this is in industrial environments not cars, which are driven a few thousands -if at all- kms per year. I still don't get it, why a gasket made in Spain should be of less quality than a gasket made here. The machinery and processes are the same like here. If they changed material the aim was likely an improvement. If the gasket are now junk, this aim must have failed. And these are the things, in which I am interested. Some call ist 'arguing'. I call ist 'discussion' or wanting to further learn. I hate to underline it. But being a mechanical engineer I want to know, what's going on and not rely on stories. And yes. It's all about profit. But there are a few companies left, where it's also about reputation. These are mostly family-run businesses, while the others are mostly public companies, who have to satisfy their shareholders, but unfortunately no more their customers. Best from Germany Martin
Hello Martin, From mechanic to engineer (probably I'm not the best mechanic on planet earth and your not likewise either). Jokes apart, I don't know the real answer behind this so called "junk", can't even discuss if these gaskets are good or bad. all I know is Elring gaskets are the only ones I could find for my car and I thought they were good as gold until now.... Now it wouldn't surprise me, that you can find better quality somewhere else or even have some custom made, which outperforms originals. Thanks for your post, I always like a good "discussion" At the end of the day, we're not that different, my granddad was German. John
Martin, Talking about quality, my other baby is a 1990 T3 VW Caravelle. The van is state of the art, now... original engine (1.6 turbo diesel/ 51KW) is unpowered and very week. Rebuilt it once and didn't get much better(it's just a piece of junk...proven fact). I decided to try a different engine, so I swapped it for the VW E2 gas engine ( 2 liter 115 HP 8 valve, Digifant 1 fuel injection). This gas engine is now at 250.000Km and nothing has failed or been repaired...Oh! that isn't true, I replaced the water pump This engine still holds 11Kg compression an all four cylinders, starts right up, cold or hot, accelerates perfectly and has a top speed of 150 Km/h. This engine is a bad ass!!! Transmission is the original one, and quality is fair(could be better) This is just a point... car manufacturers make mistakes too. Image Unavailable, Please Login
The Explorer Is a good bearing(didn't say cheap), and brings SKF's quality back to where it should be. John.
The Ferrari 10mm studs were not of the yeilding type and were not intended to be replaced at each use like many are. That may be one of their design issues. As far as 11mm studs I have them made by a company in the US called ARP. Not inexpensive but less costly than buying from Ferrari and better quality. I know Motion Products http://www.mpi-ferrari.com/ also makes studs for Ferrari motors. You could check with them as well. Get in touch with these guys for the head gaskets. There is quite a bit not shown on the website so just email or call and ask. http://****************.com/scuderia-rampante-innovations-products/
Oh. Nice. I have also memories regarding those cars. We used them for children transportation, when I did my alternative civil service back in the 80s. (don't know the correct term. I mean doing social work instead of going to the army) They even offered the possibility for us to rent those T3s for private things and so we rented one for a week and travelled to the Pyrenees with four people. T3 ran trouble free and burned to the ground on a Sunday evening on our way home around 50 kms before we got home. Best Regards Martin
WTF is wrong regarding Dave's website? Why is it getting filtered on Fchat? I got the same result already one year ago, when I wanted to link to his fuel hoses. Best Regards Martin
People here are paranoid of free advertising for some people when all we are trying to do is help an owner.
Hmmm seems Paul and I ran into the same head gasket issue when doing my motor. I unfortunately don’t know what he ended up using but I think they were custom ordered.
Service Bulletin 10-14: In sequence, torque each to 45 Nm/33 ft lbs. Followed by (in sequence), each 120 degrees. I've no personal experience with the 328 engine, but there's the official data point you're looking for.
