Is Ferrari too Italian to win in F1?

we’ve all seen the posts that accuse Ferrari of being too Italian to ever win in F1..... we are too emotional, too stylish, our words are accompanied by too many hand gestures, we score with too many beautiful women

Having had it clarified that it’s okay to attack a culture, but not other users, and there is a difference apparently, it seems a good idea to then explore this issue.

What do you guys think? Is Ferrari’s decade long struggle to win down to being Italian?, if so, why do you think that is?

Since most teams are based in the Uk, and therefore mostly exposed to UK culture (what little it has), why are they not ALL beating Ferrari, if it’s the culture of the team and it’s home country that drives its success

As the son of an Italian mother, I’m a bit offended when it’s said that Ferrari’s failure is being Italian. I mean, is McLaren **** because they are full of Brits?

Let’s keep it clean and civilised though chaps.... I don’t want this to degenerate into another big argument

 

I think the motivations to win are extremely high in Italy. They have won in the past and they will win again. Too Italian? As some Brits might say - "Rubbish."

 

Nothing wrong with having Italian passion of 90 years established and 72 years of racing.

I think Ferrari MAY be better off building an F1 dept in the UK to get a better stream of talent pool as well as a more convenient environment-location for those whom wish to join the Scuderia. Then maybe Newey would be working for us and we would'nt have these aero set-backs.

Sidenote: It's just a matter of time before Honda becomes a full works team in Milton Keynes and turns things around which is my prediction and if the Japanese can do it, why not the Italians. It's about compromise.

 

Yes and no. I've followed them for thirty plus years. Sometimes it's like an Italian (or American) soap opera. There have many times encouraged a culture of blame and a hierarchy that one can't buck without fear of recrimation that hurts them badly IMO. OTOH when the the Team Principal is allowed to be a Team Principal they do incredibly well (can you say "Todt'?). They need an organization that allows each team member to be able to openly admit their mistakes and learn from them. And encourages all to do better.

Saying "Forza Ferrari" and treating their opponents as idiots or "Eltons' or accusing them of cheating, if you will, doesn't cut it. They need to gel as a team and, given time, and a lot less turnover, I think they will. Their primary opponent is formidable and frankly have proved themselves to be the very best- period. They are far from stupid, their drivers are not wingmen or rockstars and they drive at the very top level of F1 today. Accept that and learn how to beat him without beating everyone up on your own team in the process.

Having said this Vettel is not the guy. Riccardo and others are more than capable than Sebastian and I think Ferrari need to accept that and move on. For God's sake's- at least- let Leclerc pass when he's capable of doing so. Especially in the first bloody race of the season.

I have a lot of hope for Binotto and Leclerc. But I don't expect results in the first race, the first three races or even the first year. They're in many ways a new team- once again. And IMO they did damn well right out of the box.

And FWIW I applaud you for asking the question. I think your criticism of "Elton" goes well beyond the pale sometimes but I don't think nationality has anything to do with Ferrari as a team. F1 is truly an international sport and "Italians" can compete with anyone.

 

...uh, maybe

 

I didn’t ask you to discuss me, or Elton. I asked about Ferrari, Italy and Italians... please stay on subject

 

Oh please. It isn't about you at all. If you think so report me.

I was trying my best to be complimentary to you and applaud you for asking a good question. If the board wants to ban me for this I'm out of here. Enough's enough of "Elton" and the rest of that kind of BS.

If we should just praise Ferrari's F1 team no matter what happens (or declare that we're not watching F1 any more because we lost in Melbourne) and brand everyone who has a critical comment or praises Mercedes performance (whether driver or as a team) as a traitor or troll then its beyond ridiculous.

You asked a good question. And sadly don't won't to hear an answer.

OK Ferrarichat board have at me.

 

It will really suck if Vettel can’t do it this year.

 

Ferrari will win again. Give them time to get by the management and driver issues that make Mercedes so formidable. After all, some of them have been in place for 20 years- before Brawn.

If you're really a Tifosi it's obvious. Hamilton and Mercedes are getting past their their sell by and Ferrari are starting again.

He's not "Elton". He owns F1 right now. And it ain't just the car.

Let's give credit where its due and begin again. And kick some ass instead of whining.

 

Ask John Barnard!

 

As Johnny English would say 'it's time to kick some bottom'

 

All cultures have traits. The Italian personality is very distinct in Italian design and engineering. So is the French and British and American and German and Japanese. Certain cultures are more obsessive than others. Certain cultures ignore certain aspects of life. The Germans have an obsessive trait that runs through just about everything they do. I don't know why...but I see it. They must win. The Italians want to win in F1 very badly...but not as badly as the Germans. The Italians will take a deep breath and decide to have sex or eat a great meal...long before the Germans do. The French use their superior "intellect" to rationalize why they don't win. First, winning is very unsocialist...almost American. They'll design a very good car that maybe could win but then they refuse to. The British used to win and they think that is good enough...it would be bad form to continue to do so. In their tradition oriented view being British is just as good...and even more important. Somewhere there is an old saying about Argentines are Italians trying to be British...and maybe that also fits Japanese trying to be German. But if the Germans think the job can be done with ten people, the Japanese will use fifty...or even a hundred...and they all sing songs each morning. All almost too organized and without sparks of individuality. The Americans are just the way Americans have always been. They are cowboys. But they won't give up, they'll keep charging against the wall for a hundred years...and they'll eventually win doing it "their" way. And if they decide that it isn't worth doing they'll drop it like a piece of old fish and walk away. It's hard for Italians to win in F1 right now because they aren't German. So they'll come in #2. Eventually the Germans will screw up and stumble, and if the timing is right the Italians will win. And if the timing isn't right the Japanese will win. And maybe the Americans. But not the French or the British. That's not why they are in F1.

 

Anyone that has been to the factory, whether it be the road car division or that of the Scuderia, can tell you that Ferrari’s facilities, processes and staff are of the highest quality. Their management of the team is concise and effective, and a match for ANY of the teams out there. Even though Ron Dennis facility is reputed with his infamous OCD, Ferrari matches it for minute detail.

The people that work for the team, and that supply and work with the team, do so with the same vigour and dedication of any from Germany, the UK or US.

What Italy has in its culture is a love of life and need to express it’s emotional side more maybe than many cultures. In F1, yes, a loss is seen on every face and in every sentence, but there is nothing wrong with passion. Some of the greatest teams, armies, inventors and leaders have been similarly emotion driven, so it does not have to be seen as some kind of ‘cultural problem’.

Ferrari have been successful in F1 over 70 years, with both lean years and overtly dominant ones. Their company culture reflects the feelings of a nations pride, and there is nothing wrong with being angry at being beaten, that’s what drives them to work harder to win

F1 in the last ten years has become a ‘rules driven’ championship, the FIA sets ever more restrictive rules, often against the spirit of competition, and it has become a case of the strongest lobbyists receiving rules that suit their technology. Mercedes and Renault cry wolf about their ‘road relevance’ rubbish, having entered a series which was about innovation, invention and the highest speeds and performance, and then lobbied to have the tech reflect their road car programmes with emphasis to smaller engines and fuel economy, hardly the focus of manufacturers like Ferrari, who are concentrated, thankfully, on proper race cars for the road. As such, the racing division these days is working with engines sizes and tech that actually is a compromise, so to be so good as to be even second best is quite the achievement.

Being unable to effectively lobby for rules that would more closely align to our skills and tech means we are always on the receiving end of decisions made to favour the mainstream car manufacturers, and we would have to be blind not to see the hypocrisy of decisions taken over questionable use of the rules that we have had in the last ten years - tech and processes allowed that bypass rules, or having our own liberal use of rules punished with immediate action by a regulator that seems hellbent on maintaining the status quo established with the strongest lobbyists at Mercedes

The culture of Ferrari, of Italy, of Italians, is NOT a negative that can sweepingly be applied and used to infer somehow that we are inferior. Winning in F1 these days is more politically achieved than on the track, and cultures, waving hands, whatever it is that detractors focus on, does not define winning or losing


Forza Ferrari..... the only racing team and car marque that matters. Italia forever It’s easier to apologise than it is to ask permission

 

I’m afraid in your post, which on the whole was quite good, you did drift into personally having a pop at me, and even quoted part of my signature, so how you can try to twist me asking you to stay on topic and keep your thoughts about me out of the equation into some kind of negative is beyond me. I am Tifosi, I support ONLY Ferrari, and I am proud of my vociferous and outspoken love for the team, and my homeland


Forza Ferrari..... the only racing team and car marque that matters. Italia forever It’s easier to apologise than it is to ask permission

 

Ferrari is only "too Italian" if that means they are purposefully excluding "non-Italian" talent/resources which could have put them over the top for a WDC/WCC.

But I don't see that and evaluating any such decisions is purely speculative or just pot-stirring wise-crackery. Ferrari was very, very close last year. There were some poor strategy and race management decisions which cost us dearly. Were those "Italian" decisions? I don't see it that way any more than Seb's crash at Hockenheim was a "German" crash.

I know Scuderia Ferrari is working overtime to fix some car issues and find some pace. I am still optimistic for the season.

Forza Ferrari !!

 

I think they are, that's why they've won more than 30 f.1 titles!

 

Binotto took over the team over winter time, it's not been long. Are we in the running this year? Lets wait until we've raced on 2 proper race tracks before we can truly answer that question. It's way too early to say if Binotto is ''too Italian'' to run the team successfully. Personally, I see it that Binotto has been with the team during the enormous success it endured (and the build up to it), and the recent years when the team slumped against Red Bull and Mercedes. He knows what works in the team. He appears to be a more calm, level headed person, rather than the usual stereotypical Italian.

 

Chairman – John Elkann
Chief executive – Louis Carey Camilleri
Team principal – Mattia Binotto
Sporting director – Laurent Mekies
Chief of power unit – Corrado Iotti
Chief aerodynamicist – Loic Bigois
Head of aerodynamics – Enrico Cardile
Designer – Fabio Montecchi
Head of track operations – Jock Clear
Chief strategist – Inaki Rueda
Driver - Sebastian Vettel
Driver - Charles Leclerc


Only three were born in Italy and are down the list in regards to responsibilities
More Italians than those work at highly respected positions in Mercedes after not being good enough for Ferrari

 

Or Stepney... (RiP)

 

Interesting. Thanks for posting, I wanted to comment here yesterday but had nothing of substance to add. Frankly, I still don't. Do you have to be born in Italy to be Italian though?

 

+1

 

Not necessarily but if you ask all of those above only three will tell you they’re Italians. Binotto and Elkann are half Swiss and half American respectively so you could only say a third of Ferrari’s top positions are Italian at best.

 

Ferrari can win. Especially with Binotto. They won before as an Italian team, they will win again. Yes they are not all Italians so that whole generalization doesn't really fit but I understand the point about culture. I actually LOVE the fact that Binotto is now Team Principle. All of his experience through the success and failures, but most importantly because he is an ENGINEER. NOT a lawyer and NOT a marketeer (even worse...can you say imaginary economy $i ?) They made a great innovation with the battery set up last year but it got canned by FIA. MB did similar with the cooled wheels but they got a pass. It's these technical nitpicks lately that make or break chances because the testing bans and rule changes are so limiting. MB got it right on the major switch to full hybrid. Cold side compressor, CF bell housing. Oil blow by calories, and then ducted wheel spokes. Give Mattia and Seb a chance. Shiny tires and a fast, dusty, windy circuit may have been the issue with set up last week. If they could test all night you can be sure Seb would be in the zone like back at Red Bull.

 

Ferrari have the potential to win. They have new management. He has never been in this position before. His reaction and plans will be key to success. He is managing the team and still part of the technical team by default. That has a strength and a weakness. I think Bas has it right - more circuits/races are needed.

The team must be able to develop as fast if not faster, effectively as well, vs Mercedes. Thats not counting the on track management and drivers not running off the track in the lead or hitting other cars at the start. Much must fall into place to win. I see Mercedes with the upper hand over this for now. Their performance and philosophy are more effective to date.

 

Ferrari is an attractor of international and home grown talents.
As such it has won in the past and will win again.
Maybe even this year.

Sid is correct the when you visit the racing department or the road car factory you find facilities and professionalism of the highest order.
I warrant though that the teams "Italianess" gives it humanity, tradition and personality. Through that it inspires love and empathy in its supporters.