Euro 7 emissions equal death of V12 ?? | FerrariChat

Euro 7 emissions equal death of V12 ??

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by F2003-GA, Apr 30, 2019.

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  1. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    paulchua and of2worlds like this.
  2. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
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    Why would anyone need a V12 with a 73MPH speed limit?
     
  3. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    Ego
     
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  4. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
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    Hello,

    At present there is no established Euro 7 regulation.

    It is merely a collection of ideas, perhaps to be ratified in the next 2 years.

    Here are some details I was able to locate to help discover what this all means.


    ~~~~~~~ 1 ~~~~~~~

    https://dieselnet.com/news/2018/06bosmal.php

    Conference report: 6th BOSMAL Emissions Symposium
    28 June 2018

    some excerpts:

    The EU proposal for post-2020 CO2 emission targets calls for a 30% emission reductions from 2021 levels by 2030—a target that cannot realistically be achieved by a combustion engine, gasoline or diesel. Under the proposed regulation, EVs and FCVs (fuel cell vehicles) are considered—quite unrealistically—“zero-emission” vehicles and provided with special incentives, together with low-emission vehicles (50 g CO2/km, essentially plug-in hybrids).

    --and--

    European Commission [V. Franco] shared some of the initial thinking about the next, Euro 7 stage of emission standards. The European Parliament has called for a proposal for Euro 7 emission limits applicable by 2025 for all light-duty vehicles. The standards would be technology-neutral (e.g., the same emission limits for gasoline and diesel vehicles), would keep the tailpipe approach (no lifecycle emissions) and would focus on real-world emissions through WLTP + RDE testing and a new type-approval framework. The range of regulated pollutants could be extended, with possible additions including NH3, N2O, and non-exhaust particles (e.g., brake and/or tire particles -- this would impact all vehicles including 100% EV). Euro 7 OBD should be effective in emission monitoring and tampering prevention. The use of remote sensing (RS) is considered for the detection of significant exceedance levels such as from a tampered DPF or SCR. Finally, the particle diameter cutoff for PN measurement could be lowered from 23 nm to 10 nm.

    ~~~~~~~ 2 ~~~~~~~

    This is from 2 years ago but may be a close idea of what a Euro 7 regulation would include:

    https://dieselnet.com/news/2017/11eu.php

    From link above, interesting...

    Small volume manufacturers with less than 10,000 car registrations or 22,000 van registrations may apply for a derogation from their emissions target to take account of their specific situation.

    As long as Ferrari remains under 10,000 REGISTRATIONS in EU (not production, important difference) all is well (much to the chagrin of Lamborghini being hard of the much larger VAG and thus not able to benefit, at present, from SVM...they could be spun off as a standalone company...

    ~~~~~~~ 3 ~~~~~~~

    This from a few months ago, solid presentation, good graphics, please read:

    https://www.volkswagenag.com/presence/investorrelation/publications/presentations/2019/01_january/2019-01-11_Volkswagen_Konzern_Rede_WebCast_Auslieferungen_Konzern_EN.pdf

    Excerpt regarding EVAP...

    Another important topic that will continue to demand our attention in 2019 and beyond is emission and consumption legislation. The next stage of WLTP type approval comes into effect for all vehicles on September 1, 2019. This stage includes what is known as the “Evaporation Test” (EVAP). This 48-hour test is carried out in a test chamber and measures the evaporative emissions of stationary vehicles with the engine shut off. Specific threshold limits may not be exceeded. Furthermore, from September the Real Driving Emissions test that measures NOx emitted by cars while driven on the road (RDE NOx) comes into force for all vehicles.

    ~~~~~~

    Does this mean the end of the V12? Remains to be seen, revisit this once Euro 7 has been determined, but, if the main focus of Euro 7 is reduction/elimination of CO2 emissions (i.e. plant food) then the question become what is the enforcement? If merely monetary (i.e. fines) then the V12 should remain, much more expensive, but remain; However, if the enforcement is inability to register (for use on public roadways) then it would seem to seal the fate of all combustion engines...
     
  5. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    ^^ Thanks for compiling all this information. Ferrari say they're gonna fight for the V12 to survive.
    Are any of the future proposed regs threatening the V12 or is it just going to be impossible to meet them with a V12
     
  6. vincep99

    vincep99 Formula 3
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    Thanks from me too for the excellent research and summary.
    Good thing Ferrari separated from FCA back in 2016
     
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  7. Themaven

    Themaven F1 Rookie

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    Recent political developments have not helped. It was the big German manufacturers that lobbied powerfully against a slew of new regulations. Dieselgate and the weakening of Angela Merkel in Germany following the immigration crisis/elections have decimated the power of the supporters of car manufacturers in Brussels.

    It will get much worse, quickly. In London, I have to pay an extra charge to drive my Ferraris, which I wouldn't mind, except diesel taxi drivers and refrigerated trucks belching out black carbon do not. This is a precursor to banning cars altogether. If you speak out against such plans, you are a fascist.

    Until recently it was California that seemed to be the fount of the strictest regulations, no longer. The new Porsche 911 is more strangled in Europe than it is in the US, a reversal of the situation in the 80s and 90s.
     
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  8. MalcQV

    MalcQV F1 Rookie

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    73? I think you mean 70. ;) There won't be any tolerance!
     
  9. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

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    No soup for you!

     
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  10. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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  11. MalcQV

    MalcQV F1 Rookie

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  12. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    Just a thought::

    A 4 litre V12 would have a lot better emissions than a 6 litre V12.........
     
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  13. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    Exactly Plus it could rev up to 12k and avoid heavy taxation in China since it's a 4.0
     
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  14. red passion

    red passion Formula Junior

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    IMO the future for Ferrari lies in alternatives to fossil fuels. Why not making the cars to run on E85 also? In the future I could even imagine homologating the cars for Ethanol usage only. Another interesting possibility could become synfuels. I think Ferrari should take an active role in boosting such technologies.
     
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  15. Themaven

    Themaven F1 Rookie

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    That’s an interesting article, thank you. Although he does say

    “We’ll hopefully see companies like Ferrari and Lamborghini stick with the engine type, but hybridization will likely be required to make it emissions friendly.”

    Which gives some hope. I agree with him about everything except the Lusso. I found the V8 T better. With its RWD plus midrange punch. Real fun catching the tail.
     
  16. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    That's what puzzles me by Ferrari statement saying they'll do the V12 without hybridization
    Maybe they're just saying that so's not to reveal their actual plans.The only way forward for
    such a large NA displacement is with hybridization IMO.Should make for a beast of a power train
    just look at the upcoming Valkyrie.All eyes are on the Aventador replacement it should pave the
    path forward for V12's in sports cars
     
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  17. thorn

    thorn F1 Rookie
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    Because E85 is a scam.
     
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  18. Ferrari 360 CS

    Ferrari 360 CS F1 Veteran

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    I think in some respects we have reached the performance peak, why not build smaller higher revving V12's, fill in the lack of torque in the mid range with hybrid power, allow full hybrid running in cities if needed.
     
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  19. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    You got my vote on that
     
  20. ka50b

    ka50b Rookie

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    due to the higher emissions standard, I have replaced my catalytic converter with straight pipe, hope I can make the earth sound little better
     
  21. Metastable

    Metastable Formula Junior

    Why? Now E85 will not be CO2 free... it still has a CO2 byproduct. However..... when I lived in Brazil in the mid 80s ... many cars ran on 100% ethanol.... they would throw in a bit of gasoline to prevent people from drinking it.

    The problem with ethanol is the agricultural land required.... same goes for biodiesel.

    Actually the elephant in the room.... the real question is how do you level out the world population..... this exponential increase is a problem. Until that happens, pollution will get worse.... water, garbage, air quality... food needs... etc.
     
  22. ka50b

    ka50b Rookie

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    Prevent people from drinking it Lmao. That is awesome. hahahaha. BTW i saw someone in china drinks gasoline everyday on TV news when i was in china.
     
  23. red passion

    red passion Formula Junior

    Mar 4, 2012
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    I think that trade-off mainly occurs with first generation biofuels. Second and third generation don’t compete with food production anymore as they make use of plant remains and algae.
     
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  24. Ferrari 360 CS

    Ferrari 360 CS F1 Veteran

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    So much is made of motor vehicle CO2, what about CO2 from planes, this CO2 being deposited where we really don't want it, high in the earth atmosphere. I don't recall reading about any measures at all to curb this.

    However it seems V12's, V8s and other minority methods of transport, being seldom driven cars are fair game for legislators.
     

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