New GPF = worse exhaust note on new Ferraris?

Have you guys been keeping up on all this GPF (gas particle filter) stuff?

I just ran across it over in the V12 forum. I normally don't check that forum much, but I have been reading over there a little more over the last few weeks, because I was contemplating maybe ordering an 812 Superfast. Recently, I read this entire thread thread over there:

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/812-vs-rumors.569313/page-16

Skip forward to around June 5th, 2019 and the thread branches off into a rather alarming discussion about this new GPF EU emission systems being required on all new 2020 model years (aka MY2020). I wasn't aware of this until recently, but I'm wondering if you guys ordering late production 488's and F8's are aware of the impact it might have on cars currently being spec'd out? For me, personally, it's enough of an issue that I have cancelled my plans of ordering a new 812 Superfast via the dealer and instead will most likely just buy a 2018 or 2019 used one down the road (if I opt to go the V12 route).

Anyway, just wanted to mention it over here, since I suspect a lot of us aren't aware of it and maybe don't visit the V12 forums much, if we are mainly focused on V8 cars.

In brief, a GPF is a gas particle filter system of some sort, near as I can tell. I believe it's similar to a catalytic converter, but from what I have read thus far, not as easy to delete. It's part of the exhaust system and therefore affects the exhaust note. That might not be as big an issue for the now turbocharged cars, such as the F8 or F90, but it's sure caused a lot of people ordering 812's to lose sleep it seems.

Thoughts?

Ray

 

Heard this doesn't apply to US cars.

 

That's what I thought also, but if you read the thread, it seems that 812's being spec'd now will include it. There was someone on the thread also concerned it might impact their Pista, which is currently in late production.

Ray

 

In the AMG forum in which I'm a card carrying member. We figured out their is a code for the included EU particulate filter that is in the build sheet. This code is not included in US model build sheets. Simply because it's not added.

 

It is actually a HUGE deal for Turbo cars, because GPF "reduces exhaust note" and because the whole point of a standard turbo charger is to recycle exhaust gases, the turbo car + GPF will equal even LESS sound for the exhaust than a naturally aspirated car

take a listen for what Porsche was able to do...(not much)
start at 10m 15second mark:

 

correct, does not apply, not required, but, Ferrari is putting GPF on all cars it produces for all markets, that's the current "in the know" word and I have references from several factory contacts GPF will be on all USA cars for MY2020 and beyond (all models)

 

economies of scale in action...Porsche and now apparently Mercedes will skip GPF for their USA production, but they produce far more cars per year and in the case of Mercedes some are made in USA based factory (Vance, AL for instance), so far easier to have different production for USA than Ferrari

 

Might you be able to order an MY 2020 without it? Since it's not required by law in the US. I would think Ferrari would oblige this to US customers. Knowing it could cause some concern amongst their US customers.

 

For the V12 it may be a concern - but for the V8 which are allegedly already beyond bearable because of the turbo, I cannot care less.
This GPF is not good news but we survived catalytic converters... and it's far less crap than the adblue works for diesel engines.

 

This is my understanding as well, from reading the thread in the V12 forum. Even though it's not required here in the US yet, all markets will start seeing cars equipped with it, because it is currently required in the EU for 2020. I read this as "building a special non GPF version" for certain markets would be too complex, so just give everyone the GPF equipped cars now.

Isn't that about the situation or am I misunderstanding something here?

Ray

 

This is the question and the concern I think.

Ray

 

Anything to shut the 488 up between 3000 and 5000 RPM's would be a benefit true...

Before I decided to just sell my 488, I had looked into ways to keep the valves closed slightly longer actually. The exhaust note from about 4800 RPM and up isn't too awful, but below 4500 it's too much of a drone.

I believe there was a video of a F8 starting up posted some place recently... it sounded awful. I wonder if it was equipped with this new GPF stuff or not?

Ray

 

China also requires GPF for compliance starting July 2020 as they are following Euro regulations, it's called China 6
http://www.europe-to-china.com/china-6-emission-standard/

Of course, China is about 8% Ferrari production, but these new regulations (and some are 'per province'!) are why Ferrari pointed a lot of production (comparatively speaking) recently to China:
Ferrari accelerated shipments to China in Q1 ahead of new emissions regulations

back to your point, not only too complex, too costly, Ferrari produces V12 engines independently of intended chassis (as I believe all 812s chassis are identically made), but, to make changes for the GPF devices there will likely be some variation in the chassis by way of new supports and/or heat shielding and places to route the GPF devices which must be as close to the engine headers as possible to receive as much heat as possible as is required for GPF re-generation. That means the passenger compartment will likely require some changes (maybe making the central tunnel wider?) and as a result simply too complicated to create different chassis designs, different exhausts (did you release in past 10 years only exhaust difference for V12 Ferraris was a variation of the muffler/silencer used in the TDF for S.Korea/Tawain/Japanese markets, otherwise, all V12 exhausts have been identical)

did you realize this whole GPF debacle came into play shortly before the 812 launch in 2017:
https://europe.autonews.com/article/20170315/ANE/170319958/why-tougher-eu-emissions-rules-put-the-combustion-engine-s-future-in-doubt
Excerpt:
Last December (2016) may have marked a watershed moment in which consumer advocacy groups notched a victory over the auto industry. EU member states forced an across-the-board cleanup of tailpipe pollutants in September 2018, requiring the retrofit of particle filters to trap soot from cars equipped with gasoline direct injection engines.

As for markets with high-sulphur gasoline such as Australia Mexico, Brazil, most of the middle east, I am guessing Ferrari will simply work through warranty claims and their GPF supplier (unclear who it will be, Bosch, Corning, and so on) for any GPF failures due to the fuel content literally clogging the GPF, here's a breakdown of such countries:

Image Unavailable, Please Login

It will certainly be interesting to see how it unfolds...

 

To be fair, comparing a 996 NA engine with a newer turbo’d+GPF is a little too apple and orange.
That being said, the new engine sound compared to my 997.1 TT sucks as well.

(As an aside, check out that bloat. Newer cars are just getting too large)

Will be interesting to see the inevitable comparison videos that will be made of models pre- and post-GPFs.

 

All F8 Tributo's have GPF, Ferrari Magazine wrote about how GPF sound was worked over for 6 months, to get the right sound or at least best as possible

https://magazine.ferrari.com/en/cars/2019/03/06/news/ferrari-f8-tributo-inside-story-55153/

from above:
Marzio Maresi - engine - says: "To fulfil new emissions and noise regulations, we needed to change the exhaust. That meant changing various engine parts and revalidating the engine, driveability and sound." The only visible changed parts are the new aluminium intake manifold, and exhaust. Mechanical engineer Fontana adds: "we had to achieve the right sound with the new exhaust. We worked for six months together as a team, to create the best sound possible, both inside and outside the cabin."

here's that video:
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bv7K91mhCK_/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=gvua1hyqv9wl

 

I'll check the link out, thanks!

This reminds me a lot of the whole "we worked to make the 488 note sound amazing" and that didn't work out so well

Ray

 

6 months and this is the result?



Yeah, no thank you.

Ray

 

In comparison, Pista (the engine in both are very similar)



quite a difference,

I understand MY2020 Pistas will also have GPF including many Pista Spiders

 

Over in the 812 forum, the 812 VS thread picks up the GPF thread on page 16 (half way down on the page). It runs on past that page. So keep reading.... Interesting commentary, especially from some respected members of our Ferrarichat community.

Here is the link:

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/812-vs-rumors.569313/page-16

 

Sigh.

 

If my Pista which just went to factory as an order comes with this thingy, I’m out.

 

Yeah sounds terrible. Like it just got out of Midas/Meineke with a cheap muffler replacement.

 

Sounds like a wet fart,being strangled.

 

F8 sounds pretty bad, no thanks.

 

That's the video I was trying to locate - thank you. That's a really disappointing exhaust note. I'm guessing it's the result of the new GPF stuff on the exhaust system?

And yeah, as someone else mentioned above, if my brand new Pista showed up with a GPF on there, I'd be pissed.

Ray