812 VS Rumors | Page 23 | FerrariChat

812 VS Rumors

Discussion in 'F12/812' started by Frenzisko, Feb 10, 2018.

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  1. marky1

    marky1 Formula 3
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    Nov 1, 2004
    1,119
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    Mark
    Would you like to make a guess as to whether my 812 which passed through stage 30 on 21st June is going to have a GPF?
     
  2. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    Yes, some things are mandatory, no matter what.
    Regarding GPF, I see that half the forum has gone ballistic, without even knowing why. Let's try it first and get mad afterwards.
     
    sampelligrino and nycbrose like this.
  3. Thecadster

    Thecadster F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 27, 2017
    6,705
    Cool heads prevail. Surely Ferrari solves the riddle. That said, have you seen the F8 video? It’s pretty discouraging right....?
     
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  4. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    Yes I have, doesn't sound too good. Up close though it might sound better. That said, even current turbocharged Ferraris don't sound as nice as their N/A predecessors, which in turn don't sound as nice as the N/A V12s.
     
  5. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    Problem about getting the hopes up too high is by looking about what Audi did with their V10, Audi has considerable resources, far more than Ferrari and their best is noticeably different than pre-GPF.

    The NYC Atelier team has recently let visitors know the 812+GPF "will sound different", that is something to take note of is it not?

    The recent announcement that all MY2020 Ferraris worldwide will include GPF regardless of destination country is upsetting to those outside EU/China. Even Porsche knew this would be a problem and decided to put in the extra expense to produce non-GPF cars for those outside EU/China.

    It's not for "no reason" people are taking notice and being displeased, it is squarely because of what can be heard now, experienced now.

    And, new tech nannies are concerning as well, AEB (automatic emergency braking) being the biggest concern, none of those AEB systems by any manufacturer are perfect, hopefully Ferrari will have an easy way to disable that doesn't require putting the car into CT OFF mode.

    Unlike Turbo Chargers (which were done for a dual reason : increase power and reduce CO2 penalties), GPF has a single purpose (allow car to be registered for street use in EU and China), there is no performance reason for a GPF for it absorbs 5%+ of power so engine output has to be increased just to remain equal to non-GPF output and GPF cannot be removed without voiding warranty and reprogramming the ECU and the GPF could end up being a regular warranty item due to it becoming clogged as the result of insufficient regeneration opportunities. And, do you realize that when the ECU is re-gen the GPF it will LEAN OUT of the fuel mixture to cause the engine to burn hotter, bad idea in the long term, right?

    It's all negatives for the GPF, not a single good thing at all. Of course you might say it is helping reduce soot in the environment and being more healthy but that is not the reality at all. Do you realize the current non-GPF 812 produces 1mg of "soot" per mile, that means it takes, 28,000 miles to produce 1ounce, the GPF will supposedly reduce the output by a factor of 10 (maybe), so instead of 28,000 miles it would take 280,000 miles to produce that ounce, totally meaningless, well past the point of diminishing returns. Not to mention just driving and braking will produce much more "soot" than that (even an electric car would have the same result).
     
  6. tickerhound

    tickerhound Formula Junior

    Sep 17, 2016
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    Mark
    So if you have placed a deposit and your car is currently in production and you decide to cancel due to this gpf issue, I'm assuming you give up your deposit. Any other liabilities?
     
  7. Bundy

    Bundy Formula 3

    May 18, 2011
    2,374
    Arizona & Kentucky
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    Anir
    #557 Bundy, Jun 23, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
    A voice of educated reason in a sea of meaningless regulatory overreach. None of this will make the world a better place, anymore than the ridiculous USA-spec F40 sliding shoulder belts or ugly bumperettes did. Or the power-robbing engine mods of the late 1970’s and early 1980’s cars. Or ethanol that gums up all my small engines, etc, etc, etc.

    The doom-and-gloom scenarios are getting tired and pathetic, too. “Population bomb”-induced mass starvation, peak oil, killer bees, new Ice Age (1970’s), Y2K, Global Warming....it’s all BS. The world is a far better place than it’s ever been, yet governments (and in this case, Ferrari) seem determined to put their needs and agendas ahead of their citizens and customers. If Porsche can make non-GPF versions for the US, Ferrari certainly can, too, at the price points that we’re now paying for regular production models.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  8. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    Check your order agreement with your dealer, generally there are 2 liabilities:

    a. Cancelling an order will likely earn you a black mark with the factory (they may not accept any future order from you)

    b. You may lose your deposit, or it may only be returned to you after the car is sold, but, know this, unsold new cars at Ferrari dealers (because of cancelled order) are difficult for the dealer to sell because the dealer is not allowed to advertise the car at all, they can put it on their show room, let it for test drives, but zero marketing is allowed (by Ferrari North America), and then, the dealer can only sell the car to a person that lives(had a valid address) in that dealer's zone (at most 100 mile radius, sometimes far less when dealers are clustered together) -or- someone who has a valid address that is outside of any Ferrari dealer's zone (for instance, someone living in North Dakota can buy such a car from any Ferrari dealer because their nearest dealer is 100s of miles away)
     
  9. tickerhound

    tickerhound Formula Junior

    Sep 17, 2016
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    Full Name:
    Mark
    Thanks, I'm not at that point (cancelling) but I'm upset at the thought of having to compromise on my 812. The 12 cyl Ferrari was always my end game and this GPF thing is a thorn in my side. I could easily walk away from the deposit ($5k), but I still want the car.
     
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  10. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 World Champ
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    Nov 2, 2003
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    Stick with your car they'll be plenty of "legal" aftermarket solutions for it
     
  11. F12JAJ

    F12JAJ Formula Junior

    Apr 24, 2016
    517
    California
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    Jerry
    Here is another thought. They were trying to take the secondary market profits out of the market to motivate new buyers to order an 812.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  12. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    Audi is one rank lower than BMW/Mercedes, which are one rank lower than Maserati, which is one rank lower than Ferrari. I don't really care what Audi did, I will wait for the Ferrari solution to the problem, knowing that it won't sound as good as previously.


    I have a car with all that and they are all defeatable. I don't think that they won't have an off switch in new Ferraris.


    Even if it saves a single life, it is worth it IMO.


    Where does one draw the line though? Ferrari produces 9k cars a year, okay give them a free pass. Porsche produces 150k cars a year, okay give them free as well. It is a slippery slope, isn't it?


    I am sorry, but your comment gives ammo to those who say that Americans are self centred...
     
    tekaefixe likes this.
  13. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    Only if voiding your warranty is acceptable...as ECU reprogramming will be part of any such solution, it's not like a catalytic converter and O2 sensors

    for instance, example GPF DELETE solutions:

    requires new "software":
    https://milltekshop.com/gpf-opf-bypass-for-fitment-to-milltek-sport-only-with-oe-or-milltek-sport-downpipes-requires-gpf-opf-delete-software-f87-m2-competition-coupe-2018-2020-ssxbm1091/

    requires "stage 2 ecu remap":
    http://millteksport.com/exhaust.products.cfm?variantid=1632
     
    Bundy likes this.
  14. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    I wonder who Quasimodo pizzed off to get stuck with that test job! :D
     
  15. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
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  16. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    News Flash - everybody is 'self centered' when the problem appears in their back yard :)
     
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  17. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    22,739
    New EU laws prohibit "defeatable nannies" and no off switch/system will be allowed anymore. At least in Switzerland, this country is going to take over all the new EU laws (even if Switzerland is not part of the EU!!).
    Same for HELE stop/start function, AEB, GPF, etc., these all become fully mandatory.
    Eliminating these functions or technically altering them in any way will become illegal in Switzerland, people will go to jail for it and huge fines are planned. Cars can be confiscated and crushed by Swiss Government/state.
    Not a joke.

    Marcel Massini
     
  18. Eilig

    Eilig F1 Rookie
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    Aug 31, 2001
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    Your car was built prior to 2020. The EU laws will change, requiring them to be undefeatable. This was covered previously in the thread.

    It won't. That's the whole point.

    Are ethnophobic statements such as this grounds for thread ban?
     
  19. Bundy

    Bundy Formula 3

    May 18, 2011
    2,374
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    Anir
    I don’t know if I’m self-centered (apparently all Americans are?), but I strongly believe in self-determination. Our US laws do not require many of these complex & meaningless new features that are inherently antithetical to the design brief of a high-performance sports car - especially a Ferrari.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  20. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    I am not an expert (an engineer or a chemist or a medical doctor), but from what I have read, sub-10μ (microns) particulates are carcinogenic, especially for the lungs. The GPF deals with those particulates. I grew up in an era when lorries spewed out dense clouds of thick black smoke. I will happily take a small sound penalty for our children to breath cleaner air. Won't you?

    PS: 250k for Porsche, indeed. Even worse...
     
  21. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    And yet the folks from the US seem to make all this fuss...
     
  22. tickerhound

    tickerhound Formula Junior

    Sep 17, 2016
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    Most of us drive these cars a miniscule amount of time so I don't buy that argument. Might as well live life in a hermetic bubble...
     
  23. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    Of course they do; they have an axe to grind this time.

    On the other hand the EU bureaucracy sounds more like this guy >

    "The more we do to you, the less you seem to believe we are doing it". :rolleyes:
     
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  24. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    Quote an authoritative source, please.


    I would like to see a study that states so.


    "Ethnophobic", a great word indeed; kudos dear sir (ethnos = nation and phobos = fear, in Greek)! Nothing ethnophobic regarding my statement though. The fact that some people want to be exempt from the regulations that apply to the rest of the world is dumbfounding to the rest of us.
     
  25. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    I fathom that you do understand that exceptions based on usage are not admissible. Rules are rules and as the the Romans would say "Dura lex, sed lex".
     

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