Scud over CS and Speciale Chris Harris

And your point is?....

I wouldn't use your words. Compared to Scud, the CS engine is thin on torque, it needs more revs to perform best, the cubic capacity of the larger engine helping the Scud here to overcome the 1.3+ tonnes that these cars typically have when usable on the road. Loose weight and you don't need to overcome some much physics.

 

You “only” need a $200k used Scud to beat a modded, used RX7?

I just find it funny how many here claim to love performance but aren’t bragging about their Corvette ownership. Why not? Most any late model Corvette will smoke all of these Ferrari’s.

 

For me Non-turbocharged era Road going Ferrari V8s where all about the heighted sense of agility and razor sharp throttle responses and driver involvement that came with a lightweight capable chassis. A car that didn't need tonnes of electrical driver aids to hide the dogs dinner hiding underneath. One with telepathic steering, great braking and weight balance but above all one that puts a huge smile on your face to drive it. An event, a drama, fun, yes fun, not too serious. Not many of us are professional racing drivers and certainly not on the public roads. Do we really need 1000hp to enjoy a weekend drive out? Not a chance we do. Chasing numbers just gets silly and misses a lot of what makes a car enjoyable.

When people cite the CS being massively underpowered it makes me laugh. Underpowered for what exactly? For your ego to take against that cheap ass body kitted RX7? Oh please, give me a break[emoji15]

 

Most of this is just bench racing.

360trev is the real deal, and speaks from knowledge gained not from just owning a car, or owning one with bolt ons, but actually reworking a car to the highest degree ~ then gleaming the knowledge to then share.

I enjoyed my Stradale for years & years but always searched for the spark. So what did I do? I implemented the same common hot rod tricks that I have always used and viola my Stradale now is everything that any modern factory effort is. Scuds? yes, covered. Porsche GT's? Yup, covered. Detroit stuff? Sure: GT350R? Covered. C7 Corvette? Covered.

Admiring Trevs path I followed a few angles (lightening) then spent considerable time with dyno data and ECU mapping (to suit my choice of headers, high flow converters, matching muffler). Gains were also found at the intake, and insulating inlet air as well as the exhaust path. It took very little to make it so that even RichardCH would approve.

Should it have been this way stock? Yes. But Trev & I can bask in the gains found & know that when efforts are made that they are repaid.

 

Yep, right on queue, butthurt. Stepping away from this thread now; it always ends this way with you blokes even after all these years...sigh

 

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These two are the ones that stole my heart. I was surprised how much I liked the CS. Yes, it’s relatively slow, yes shifts are slow, however I think we are becoming jaded here. It’s one of the few true Ferraris in my opinion. Raw, snappy, analog as possible, and loud! To me it’s more thrilling to be in a slow car that requires me to be a better driver than a modern digital car that’s basically a driving computer.

I drove the 720s and Performante and both were very fun and exhilarating, and FAAAAAST. But, I’ve had more fun driving my slow abarth than those cars.

My order of cars is:

Scud
CS
Spec
Testarossa (not the 512TR)
355

 

Very kind words Michael. Funny thing is I never felt the CS was underpowered to have enjoyment but I knew the factory had a marketing limit to not allow it to be faster than the then upcoming F430 around Fiorano. It matched it. Hence artificially limiting its performance by using heavy cast steel center bells for the ccm discs for example vs lightweight alloy which transforms the unsprung weight and yields big improvements to handling feel.

I have different cars with a fraction of the power right up to nearly 1000hp ones. The ones which are most memorable and enjoyable are not necessarily the fastest. Something which some people find difficult to accept but it's true. Fast isn't always fun. After all 500mph+ in a Jumbo jet is quite boring! [emoji6]

I do vastly prefer the difference in feel when you drop weight, a lot of it. Actually transforms a car to me if it's done in a balanced way, not just about power to weight but how it goes around a corner or series of them, it's controllability, it's confidence, it's ability to be corrected when you overdo it. It's ability to be nimble and go exactly where you place it. The confidence it inspires to push harder into the sweet spot of enjoyment. It's why I tend to feel cold about the standard models. They may be faster every iteration but not necessarily more fun.

 

You’re leaving and I’m the one who’s buttthurt? I love my CS. The “fastest car” game is un-winnable. My reasons for loving Ferrari don’t have a lot to do with performance because I realize there are much less expensive cars that deliver much greater performance. The CS isn’t my only car but I may love it the most. I don’t like Corvettes or rice burners.

 

Don’t leave guys , these conversations are fun and educational to guys like me. I don’t have a CS or a Scud, tho I hope to get a Scud in the next 2 years, since I just got my F430 this March. Keep the conversations live.


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I won’t leave you. Not ever. Sometimes it gets to be an ego war and a keyboard battle. All I know is I love my scud and no other car has made me smile that way. Each person is different and it just takes seat time in either. Unless you’re one of the few lucky ones who has all three! Ferrame I’m talking to you!

 

Nah, just not feeding the troll anymore =)

Here's an oldie but goodie; the great Schumie sharing a day with Scud owners at Fiorano:

 

Ewww....get a room already, just assume Freshmeat won't be joining in.

 

Do we have a craft lesson here? If I understand Chris Harris correctly, he wants to drive and enjoy the car he goes home with. He does not want to tinker with it for hours, days and weeks.

I appreciate what 360trev writes, he brings the reality to the table. He proves with each written line that you have to improve a CS with a lot of expertise and measures (weight reduction, engine tuning and and and...). If a CS were so good you would not have to make all these changes! My conclusion at this point: If you are looking for a vehicle for crafting, take the CS.

 

All it proves to me is that Ferrari Engineering leave a heck of a lot of performance on the table for people to exploit to their own benefit if they so desire. You don't have to but if you do you can expect to make your current model close to or even (far) exceeding the next model cycle car if you dig deep enough. The CS is plenty capable and fast enough to get enormous thrills from in stock form and it does actually take a lot of skill to drive quickly. This trait is becoming increasingly more difficult to find in each successive generation of cars where you cannot drive them without driver aids getting in the way, no matter how much you want to disable those systems.

Virtually every car can be improved on, just even fitting the latest tires and setting the geo up for fast road use alone transforms many cars from safe but inherently understeer prone things to much more capable and less frustrating experiences. The Scud is no different. I've actually been doing quite a bit on the Scud lately and actually you can get it to be (with effort) as quick as a 458 Speciale. To do that with a CS is possible but requires very deep pockets. Your talking +40% increase in performance all around which is no mean feat. Thing is does it really need +40%, that's my point really. Some people's opinion varies with the years that go by so clearly they are comparing it with other similar priced cars. I'm talking about is a CS, Scud, Speciale in their own right good enough to enjoy. I think the answer is a resounding yes. No matter if you ask the same question in 10 or 20 years time they will still be fun provided they are still allowed on the roads!

Enjoy your cars people. If you own any Ferrari consider yourself lucky!

 

Guys this is turning into a classic thread that should be made sticky, so here is my CS dyno, this is not at wheel HP but total HP all 386 of it, furthermore look at the weak torque number of 368 nm

 

my tuned 911 turbo had more than double the torque on the same dyno at the same time

 

I have a 991.1 C4S manual , but I never drive it anymore, after I bought the F430. It’s sad, but the Ferrari is way more fun to drive.


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This proves absolutely nothing. My baseline 360 Modena started out life with more than that... Sorry, one car on one dyno doesn't define the model.

 

So there’s a slippery slope here when modding cars...I’ve done this with my last Lotus’ and turned my first Elise into a full modded track car - supercharged, ECU tuning, suspension, fuel and oil pumps, radiator, aero, CF and weight reduction, etc. all the way to full on roll cage. That’s why freshmeat got beat by a modded RX7. Any car can be modded to a monster - look at UGR adding turbos to Lambos and Supras over 1000HP.
Point is, most owners don’t and won’t want to this to their Ferrari’s.
The beauty of a Ferrari is it’s greatness out of the box, from factory.

If we want to compare apples to apples, stock should be compared to stock.

Kudos to those who have the ability to mod their cars. But kudos to Ferrari for the platform to which we are able to enjoy these wonderful NA V8’s!


Sent from my 16M

 

Ferrari cars of this era don't quite work like this. EU cars for instance had quite a different emissions spec to US cars which made them quite a bit lighter and faster. Also you could in effect tune the cars from new with optional carbon bits and lightweight spec such as lexan side windows and Race harnesses (well at least in some regions!), so there can be quite a lot of variation in performance from car to car. So one stock car isn't the same as another. Sadly Ferrari don't give direct help in making the lightest spec. Lighter doesn't necessarily mean highest profit see! Also I noticed Ferrari actually slowed down the 2004 spec CS EU cars to comply with more strict incoming emissions EU3 tests. Crazy fact that some have no idea about. I can show evidence of this just by dumping maps using my SAK tool!

Ferrari at least fitted from factory with coilovers dampers for suspension adjustment for various uses like fast road and track right out of the box.

So you can corner weight the car, you can fit sticky rubber, you can adjust geo and the dealers can even sell the shims necessary to adjust the camber. So yes Ferrari actively encourage you to tinker with geo settings to setup the car for your perfect track setup. No need to replace suspension like a lot of cars it's handling is great right from the dealer.

I think the easy upgrades are fair game. Tires, lightweight rims, Lithium batteries, sports exhaust/cats/headers and stage 1 maps can all be done in a few hours and all easy to revert if so wished. Non reversable or expensive to revert upgrades go into the relm of serious tuning.

 

Trev exactly how much evidence do you need zillions of vids of a CS getting pasted in side by side races, dynos, lots of past owner testimonies on this thread & https://www.wheels24.co.za/news/my-ferraris-too-slow-20050628-2?mobile=true

 

strange that none of this exists for a standard F430 let alone a Scud

 

That is Rob's (Hazy) old EU spec CS and it produced 408 hp on a hot day, on a colder day (dense air) it would have produced a bit more.. I was actually at that dyno session with my own car and it was over a decade ago BTW.. What's this post trying to prove?!?

 

? None of what...

I have no idea what this even supposed to mean. The 360, F430s, CS and Scud all share the same suspension wishbone cast chassis points, fundamental geo setup with ability to add shims and adjust the coilover ride height. Unsurprisingly given its a common F131(E) Alcoa chassis give or take a few stiffening bars with identical roof, doors, windshield location, suspension mounting points across the lot of them.. You can even swap full interior, exterior etc between cars either way, there is a lot more shared between the cars than Ferrari would have you believe..

 

One mistake here is that the CS utilizes delrin spacers with aluminum hardware whereas the rest use a rubber setup with steel hardware.