What’s The Best Gearbox Oil For The Dino 246? | FerrariChat

What’s The Best Gearbox Oil For The Dino 246?

Discussion in '206/246' started by 4CamGT, Sep 8, 2019.

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  1. 4CamGT

    4CamGT F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2004
    2,649
    Southern California
    My Dino shifts “pretty good” cold or hot but I drive and shift it with great respect and try make deliberate shifts with full clutch action. I can see that second gear, shifting up or down needs to be done with care and skill and not too fast. I never try to rush it. I always make sure when taking off in first gear, that the shifter if fully down in its gate.

    I have no idea what gear oil is in my sump. I’d love to know what you’re using in your Dinos with the pros and cons of what you’ve experimented with and your experiences.
     
  2. cls

    cls Formula 3

    Jun 12, 2007
    1,663
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    Chris
    Similar trans and related problems on the 308. A lot of 308 owners use Redline.
     
  3. dgt

    dgt Formula 3
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    Jan 14, 2011
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    Andrew
    I use Redline 75W-90NS which was an improvement over the 2 previous oils used, shifts well. (don’t recall now what the previous oil was though...)
     
  4. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    Aug 22, 2002
    18,755
    fwiw in the F355 redline MTL smooths out some notchiness the 75w-90 doesn't
     
  5. 4CamGT

    4CamGT F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2004
    2,649
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    I’ve been reading some posts on F-Chat, especially in the 308 section between NS vs MTL. Seems really to ping pong both ways! I think it needs an oil that “slows” the synchros down. I’d like to hear more actual experiences before deciding which one would be best suited to my gearbox. What about synthetic oil being more leak prone?
     
  6. cls

    cls Formula 3

    Jun 12, 2007
    1,663
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    Chris
    There's also a modification to the 308 gearbox that fixes the 2nd gear cold shift problem (allegedly.) If involves opening or widening an oil passage. I'll see if I can find it.
     
  7. cls

    cls Formula 3

    Jun 12, 2007
    1,663
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    In the Ferrarichat archives

    Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 - 3:03 pm:
    There is a "post-engineering" fix for the second gear stick -- it involves drilling a relief passage in the lay shaft recess to allow the oil to plunge away from the rod end. It is easy to do, absolutely does not harm the gear box, and completely eliminates the problem. A how to article first appeared either in a past Forza or Prancing Horse issue -- sorry I can't remember. If you want the details, call Black Horse Motors in LA (adds in Forza), and ask for Carl -- he has done many, and can provide DIY info."
     
  8. 4CamGT

    4CamGT F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2004
    2,649
    Southern California

    Any real experiences with different gearbox lubricants/oils in your Dino?
     
  9. Nuvolari

    Nuvolari F1 Veteran
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    Sep 3, 2002
    6,370
    Toronto / SoCal
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    Rob C.
    I have experience running different gearbox oils with both the 308 and the Dino

    Dino:
    - Bought the car with Sweepco (a Porsche favorite) and it was ok but nothing exceptional
    - Replaced it for 75W90 NS RedLine with half a bottle of GM LSD Friction Modifier. The difference was considerable with smoother shifts when the box was warm but still very stiff when cold.
    - Re-built the gearbox and went back to the 75W90NS with the LSD additive. Many years passed as the car was in restoration so I cannot comment how the re-build affected things but the car did shift very well when warm but still stiff when cold.
    - After trying RedLine MTL in the 308 with great success I changed it in the Dino and it was immediately better cold. The car now shifts the best it ever has and I never would have believed the difference had I not tried it myself.

    308:
    - Bought the car with Agip Sint 2000 gear oil (as per dealer service records). Much too slick for the synchros so care had to be taken to avoid crunching gears
    - Changed to conventional gear oil and the shifting was better warm but very stiff cold
    - Changed to RedLine 75W90 NS with GM LSD Friction Modifier and it worked very well until I read about RedLine MTL
    - Changed to RedLine MTL and the difference was considerable. Much better cold shifting and very smooth at all temperatures.

    Both the 308 and Dino have very similar gearboxes so I thought my experiences to be fairly comprehensive. I know people can get pretty religious about oils claiming some are miles better than others. I don't want to bible punch but my personal experiences have left me very impressed with RedLine MTL in the 308/246 gearboxes. Without a doubt the best shifting I have had and it is immediately noticeable.
     
  10. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 22, 2002
    18,755
    have never heard any complaints with MTL!
     
  11. 4CamGT

    4CamGT F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2004
    2,649
    Southern California
    Rob, Thanks for your considerable knowledge based off of personal experiences/experiments!

    I was also searching Corbani’s blogs and found this interesting:
    https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/dino-saga-050814-_-2nd-gear-fixes-shift-gate.70700/#post-135133561
     
  12. Ken Ivey

    Ken Ivey Karting
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    Jan 6, 2013
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    Ken Ivey
    After a discussion in this Chat Room, I changed to Red Line. I don't notice the transmission - by that I mean it shifts well, even when cold. It just does what it is supposed to do. Doe it drip oil - sure...
     
  13. 4CamGT

    4CamGT F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2004
    2,649
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    Ken, which Redline gear oil did you end up using? Weight? MTL or NS?
     
  14. Ken Ivey

    Ken Ivey Karting
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    Jan 6, 2013
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    Not many memory cells left, but I found the container - 75W90NS
     
  15. 4CamGT

    4CamGT F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2004
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    Thanks Ken!
     
  16. 4CamGT

    4CamGT F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2004
    2,649
    Southern California

    Any one else with experiences with Redline MTL in a vintage Ferrari, especially in a Dino or 308?
     
  17. JCR

    JCR F1 Veteran
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    Mar 14, 2005
    9,991
    H-Town, Tejas
    Redline uses mostly a polyol ester base stock. Motul is another but not their whole product line. In simple terms a polyol ester maintains its viscosity (ie. thickness) over a wide temperature range compared to other basestocks. This means that that is does not thicken up in the cold and thin out in the heat as much as other basestocks. The other basestocks have to add pour point depressants (for cold) and viscosity index improvers (for heat) to maintain viscosity over a wide range of temperatures. These additives have their own drawbacks.

    See the Polyol Ester section:
    https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/esters-in-synthetic-lubricants/
     
  18. 4CamGT

    4CamGT F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2004
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  19. Skippr1999

    Skippr1999 F1 Rookie
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    Dec 22, 2009
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    I can second what’s been said about MTl.

    I had been using Redline NS in a 308, Alfa’s, and 930 Turbo with good results. Rifledriver suggested the MTL for my Dino and 328. I switched and I notice things are better in the Dino for sure. Cold shifts are relatively smooth and the occasional 2nd gear crunch seems to have become much more infrequent.
     
  20. 4CamGT

    4CamGT F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2004
    2,649
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    I see a lot of people are looking at this thread and some valuable experiences, especially with Redline MTL. Any other experiences with MTL or other gearbox lubricants? Positive or negative. Your experiences and experiments are valuable to all of us owners!
     
  21. TonyL

    TonyL F1 Rookie

    Sep 27, 2007
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    Norfolk - UK
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    Tony
    Interesting thread and the more you look into suitable oils then the more confusing it gets. Nuvolaris post highlights exactly the problems encountered by owners of classic cars.

    Ferrari recommended for the 246 Shell Spirax HD90 or EP80 oil. Unfortunately I cannot find any tech data on this product. For the 308 which is essentially the same, Ferrari recommend AGIP F1 MP SAE80W90 which [worryingly] is a GL5 oil. Are the syncros in the box made from bronze, I cannot remember.

    The 246 & 308 combined gearbox / diff has a helical tooth spur gear crown wheel and pinion with plate LSD. With Redline MTL, having looked at the data sheets it only refers to it as a transmission oil and nowhere does it say its suitable for Limited slip differentials, so although it has a GL4 rating for synchro transmissions its doesn't appear to be suitable for LSD's which possibly require GL5

    I used Castrol SAF -XJ (not made anymore) many years ago and it was useless and didn't make any difference at all even after the rebuild, in fact it was worse and every gear crunched as you went down the box.

    So for me, if AGIP has remained the same formula since the 1970's, then this is the one to go for as it was recommended by Ferrari. The big question is whether the product is the same today with modern base oils?

    I have sent an enquiry to Redline, hopefully they will reply, to see what they say.
     
  22. DinoLasse

    DinoLasse Formula Junior
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    May 26, 2009
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    Lars
    Castrol Manual gear oil EP 80W-90 is what I use.

    In other words, just a contemporary version of the EP 80 (or HD 90?) gear oil recommended by Ferrari in the owners manual.

    https://design911.uk/sv/catalog/product/view/id/22778?imt=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8tHht_DU5AIVzqSaCh0K0Ai8EAQYASABEgLFffD_BwE

    Works like a charm in my Dino.

    My experience with synthetic oil in the Dino has not been favourable, at least not in my newly rebuilt gearbox. The transmission rebuilder recommended a very expensive synthetic oil, the Duolec 1605 by Lubrication Engineers, said to be among the best in the world. At $160 for 4 liters, it had better be! I read about it, and it sounded like a seriously well engineered product: https://static.speedwaymotors.com/pdf/910-44095.pdf

    Well, I did not like the feel of the gearbox with this oil. The synchros seemed to block more than they synchronized, and the gears seemed to go in only reluctantly. I thought it might improve after a break-in period, but it did not. Also, it did cause some leakage at one of the drive shaft seals. The leak was fixed, but at this point, I decided "thanks, but no thanks" to synthetic oil, and changed to regular mineral based gear oil. The shifting immediately returned to normal, allowing smoother shifts with less effort. Still requiring a bit more effort than it should, going into 4th and 5th, but all in all, much better than with the synthetic oil.
    I have been running the car with the Castrol EP 80W 90 for several months now, and I am still very happy with it.

    I have not tried the Redline MTL, though. May do so in the future, based on the testimonials above. But I am in no rush, since I am pleased with the shifting of my gearbox now. If it ain't broke, etc.
     
  23. TonyL

    TonyL F1 Rookie

    Sep 27, 2007
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    I have tried Redline but no joy, spoke to Castrol Classic oils and they responded within minutes!

    Here is their reply:-

    Unfortunately Castrol did not have a listing for the 246GT but I can confirm our equivalents to your owner’s manual listing as follows:




    Shell Spirax HD90 is our Castrol Classic EP90



    EP80 is our Castrol Manual EP80



    These are both GL4 spec and are still readily available from classic car specialists or online stockists.



    The 308 used Castrol EPX80w/90 which is GL5 spec and again readily available


    Tony
     
  24. TonyL

    TonyL F1 Rookie

    Sep 27, 2007
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    Tony
    Stick with what you have Lars ! The Duolec product you mentioned appears to be a GL5 category and possibily not suitable for the 246 gearbox + the viscosity is way to high at 40C
     
  25. 4CamGT

    4CamGT F1 Rookie

    Jun 23, 2004
    2,649
    Southern California
    Tony,

    Thank you! This is really valuable information!
     
    TonyL likes this.

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