458 - "Jerky" OFF-ON Throttle on 2012 458 Spider | FerrariChat

458 "Jerky" OFF-ON Throttle on 2012 458 Spider

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by Corradosv, Sep 21, 2019.

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  1. Corradosv

    Corradosv Karting

    Oct 17, 2016
    194
    Monaco MC
    #1 Corradosv, Sep 21, 2019
    Hi all,
    on my (all-stock) 2012 458 Spider I used to have an annoying "jerky" feeling in the OFF-ON throttle, i.e. the transition from the negative (overrun braking, off throttle) to positive (on throttle) torque happened with a big step. Something like if a lot of transmission freeplay was instantly recovered, which was neck-snappy (not so technical, but this is what happened). It also sounded like "missing a beat" and then recovering with a popping sound.
    I would not consider this as a "touchy" throttle, as the torque increase in going more into the throttle from already on throttle was prompt, but smooth as it can be on such a sporty car, and sure if the problem in "manual" (whatever manettino setting) was 100, it became 10, if not gone, in "auto". So I would blame it on transmission settings, or maybe fueling, or the absence of it, in overrun; maybe the infamous mapping changes introduced with the 2012 m.y.?
    I have some experience on a number of other sports car, and sure none had a similar issue, so I complained and had it checked by the local Ferrari dealer, and they said it is "normal".
    Now the car is gone and I am about buying another one (all the same except the year is 2014), so I would like to have your opinions on what I should expect: was that an unlucky sample, or, with reference to the state of the art, this is actually a "jerky" car, so I shouldn't bother if this new one feels the same? I am asking because I can make a comparison with other cars, but that was the only 458 Spider I have driven so far.
    It is interesting to know before buying: even if I will proceed anyway, maybe this is a known issue, and there's a fix.. of course I will be even happier if the new one won't feel the same! Or maybe someone knows about a change in calibrations starting from year 201x...
     
  2. Adamtensta

    Adamtensta Karting

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    #2 Adamtensta, Sep 21, 2019
    Mine is a 2013 spider, it is a bit jerky and jumpy but I only notice that after starting the car but after a few minutes and it gets warm and gearbox gets warmed up (?) it works great. Less jumpy and jerky feeling. This I experience in both manual and automatic mode. I don't have much to compare with except for a 991.1 which is very different and smooth from start to end. However, very different beasts

    Sent from my CLT-L29 using Tapatalk
     
  3. Adamtensta

    Adamtensta Karting

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    #3 Adamtensta, Sep 21, 2019
    Not sure I actually answered your question but that's more on the driving experience after start and how it shifts between gears

    Sent from my CLT-L29 using Tapatalk
     
  4. Corradosv

    Corradosv Karting

    Oct 17, 2016
    194
    Monaco MC
    #4 Corradosv, Sep 21, 2019
    Thanks Adamtensta,
    same here: not so much to compare, but sure never had the same issue.
    Unfortunately mine was definitely not sensible to temperature, so the issue was not going... but still it may be the slight differences among different samples that make a big difference on a latent issue...
     
  5. Adamtensta

    Adamtensta Karting

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    #5 Adamtensta, Sep 21, 2019
    Ok got it. Best of luck with your new 458 then :)

    Btw, I have capristo exhaust switch. Not any chance of pipe but only for opening and closing the valves. I can highly recommend it to your next car. Makes a huge difference.

    Sent from my CLT-L29 using Tapatalk
     
  6. Randyslovis

    Randyslovis Formula Junior

    Jul 7, 2011
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    #6 Randyslovis, Sep 21, 2019
    The first simple answer is that on my 2010 Italia and now 2013 spider I never experience(d) this.
    The longer answer is that on my 360, the first V8 with what I believe is referred to as the "e-gas" set-up, I could get some bucking/lurching in first gear. This only occurred at crawling speed. Like trying to slow for a city street turn and when forced to meter in gas lightly due to pedestrians, etc. I could also get it in my 2001 M3 when on the highway. If I got the throttle in just the right position, the car didn't know if the gas flow should continue or be cut off. The car literally bucked. I hated that M3.
    Net, I think you may have had a one off. These cars have really sensitive electronics. As such, weird things happen that do NOT throw error codes that the dealer can identify.
    Best
    PS: my valve switch was the best thing I ever did. Turned my spider back into the sports car experience it always should have been.
     
  7. daflk

    daflk Formula Junior

    Jan 27, 2013
    257
    Hong Kong
    #7 daflk, Sep 21, 2019
    Guys it happened to my 2012 spider
    The cause is a failing gearbox speed sensor. Eventually your upshifts will jerk
    Once replaced your car will feel and act normal!!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  8. Adamtensta

    Adamtensta Karting

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    #8 Adamtensta, Sep 21, 2019
    Odd. Must be possible to fix with sw upgrade? Or sensor shift?

    Sent from my CLT-L29 using Tapatalk
     
  9. Corradosv

    Corradosv Karting

    Oct 17, 2016
    194
    Monaco MC
    #9 Corradosv, Sep 21, 2019
    Now this is interesting!

    So I may still hope that:
    1) The one I am buying doesn't have the issue (see also the other replies: it isn't that common).
    2) There's a fix in case it happens (despite I would have never said gearbox sensor).

    Thanks for sharing
     
  10. wthensler

    wthensler F1 Rookie
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    #10 wthensler, Sep 21, 2019
    I also came from a 911 to a 2013 458 Spider. No question there is a bit of jerkiness at lower speeds. I’ve learned to finesse it, so it’s not too bad. But I wouldn’t want it as a city car only.
     
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  11. Corradosv

    Corradosv Karting

    Oct 17, 2016
    194
    Monaco MC
    #11 Corradosv, Sep 21, 2019
    That.
    There's probably a wide spread of intensity for this issue (possibly starting from not at all); mine was sure annoying, borderline to not acceptable.
    Sure, as you say, not acceptable for a daily driver. I definitely had to compromise.
    I also learned how to make it a bit better (feather foot), but sure that's not natural driving.
     
  12. Adamtensta

    Adamtensta Karting

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    #12 Adamtensta, Sep 21, 2019
    Yeah agree

    Sent from my CLT-L29 using Tapatalk
     
  13. soulsea

    soulsea Formula 3
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    #13 soulsea, Sep 21, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
    I'm not sure if you guys are talking about the same thing but I find the throttle response incredibly sensitive, especially in lower gears and mid to high rpm. Basically almost impossible for me to keep a constant speed let's say in third gear and 4k rpm. The slightest movement of my foot, and I mean by the width of a hair will make the car either accelerate or engage engine braking, even in sport mode. It gets better in higher gears. From what I've read what I'm describing is part of the nature of the car.
     
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  14. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    #14 AlfistaPortoghese, Sep 21, 2019
    These cars and these engines don’t like low speeds or city traffic: they start to get hot, they feel touchy, etc.

    The 458’s brakes have the pre-fill function, which means everytime you lift off the gas, the car interprets you want to lose speed an pads come into gentle contact with discs to minimize braking delay. Most of the touchy nature of the throttle and/or difficulty maintaining speed comes from this track oriented, performance derived feature.

    My gearbox is pretty jerky either from standstill to 1st and crawling or from 1st to 2nd in low speed. Smooth afterwards.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
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  15. soulsea

    soulsea Formula 3
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    #15 soulsea, Sep 21, 2019
    Yup, around town I now keep it in auto for the most part until I get to the open roads and let her rip in manual. Auto negates the issue as it puts the car in 7th by the time I'm up to 40mph which takes out all the torque and makes the throttle response more compliant in traffic. I hate putting it in auto though, I feel like I'm waisting smiles per mile as it takes away all the reasons for owning this car. :(
     
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  16. Corradosv

    Corradosv Karting

    Oct 17, 2016
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    #16 Corradosv, Sep 21, 2019
    Hi Soulsea,
    we can maybe say we are talking about the same issue, but in my case I found switching from OFF to ON definitely annoying, switching from ON to OFF or from ON to LESS less so, whereas ON to MORE was OK to me. Basically: a positive torque increase was good, changes of the torque sign were not.
    And yes: one hair of pedal travel was snapping your neck on mine, to the extent that I was concerned about carrying a passenger, as I realized it was an annoying ride, plus they had the impression of me as a retarded driver. Which, by the way, I am, but not for that.
    When I said I learned how to handle that in part I meant that I moved my right foot by just HALF of an hair, but that was not fun, and didn't sort the issue completely out.
    Of course the problem was smaller in higher gears, but what made the biggest difference to me was driving in "auto". That was more or less acceptable, and was only in part due to the fact that "auto" means "always in 7th", but I don't think driving in "auto" (i.e. in 7th gear) is what we want to do with such a car, if not maybe in very slow downtown jams.
     
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  17. Corradosv

    Corradosv Karting

    Oct 17, 2016
    194
    Monaco MC
    #17 Corradosv, Sep 21, 2019
    Hi Nuno,
    yes the brakes pre-fill is a good point and it can explain part of the problem.
    I have to say, though, that I didn't find the car being worse in traffic or at low speed in this respect, and the jerky OFF-ON occurred at any speed, in any gear, just of course the higher the gear the less the effect. Maybe (but I am not sure) just the eye-popping effect in lifting off was worse in the first part of the pedal travel.
     
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  18. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    #18 AlfistaPortoghese, Sep 21, 2019
    Corradosv,

    I’ve just re-read your original post in its entirety. I own an Italia and rode as passenger several times in different Spiders. I’ve never experienced anything even remotely resembling what you’ve just described, so I don’t quite like the answer you got from your dealer.

    This new car you’re interested in buying... Is there an opportunity to test-drive it beforehand and see if you can duplicate the feeling you had behind the wheel?

    Kindest regards and have a great weekend in one of my favorite places in the whole wide world: Monte Carlo!

    Nuno.
     
  19. Corradosv

    Corradosv Karting

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    #19 Corradosv, Sep 21, 2019
    Hi Nuno,

    thanks for your interest, and yes: not a bad place at all!

    In fact, despite not having direct experience of different 458 samples, I don't think my issue could be passed as "normal" or "the character of the car".
    I have owned and driven several car with a character, but that to me was just mis-function, reason why I had it checked.
    It is worth to note that, at the time I had the car checked, it was under warranty, so maybe the same test once the warranty was expired was going to give a different result? like "You have to change the engine, the ECU and the gearbox"? Who knows...
    daflk reports he had a similar issue that was gone by changing the gearbox speed sensor... maybe that?
     
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  20. PhilNotHill

    PhilNotHill Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #20 PhilNotHill, Sep 21, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
    I don’t notice it like l used to.

    Pulled the lines from the exhaust baffles.

    Around town l drive in WET mode. And it sounds great because the baffles are open. This puts the shocks in the softest setting and smooths shifts between gears.

    I never drive in automatic. I hate it.

    This works for me. I love the car.
     
  21. sampelligrino

    sampelligrino Formula 3

    Apr 16, 2017
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    #21 sampelligrino, Sep 21, 2019
    The italia probably has the most sensitive throttle I've ever had the pleasure of experiencing personally. I remember test driving a friend's and worrying if I sneeze how much faster I'd be going... insanely direct and responsive even by millimeters of input it felt like
     
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  22. daflk

    daflk Formula Junior

    Jan 27, 2013
    257
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    #22 daflk, Sep 21, 2019
    Guys u can test your gearbox speed sensor by going a steep downhill in first or second gear your clutch should grab perfectly. If it jerks or can’t seem to grab the clutch, or inconsistent sometimes ok sometimes there is difficulty, the issue is related to the gearbox shaft output sensor (level one repair) being inaccurate so the clutch can’t grab properly (engine shaft and vehicle speed mismatch)


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  23. kbaillie

    kbaillie Karting

    Nov 4, 2009
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    #23 kbaillie, Sep 21, 2019
    The initial throttle touchiness is, without a doubt, a characteristic that Ferrari intentionally programmed into the car (for better or worse).

    I can confirm first hand that a well-sorted ECU flash, such as what Steve at Mase Engineering sells, completely eliminates this behavior and makes the car MUCH more enjoyable/controllable to drive at low speeds. Don’t get me wrong - the throttle is still ultra-responsive post-flash from what I experienced. It just won’t have that uncontrollable jump from 0-10% that the stock programming has.

    So: is the issue real? Yes. Is it fixable for those who are annoyed by it (not all are)? Absolutely!
     
  24. Adamtensta

    Adamtensta Karting

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    #24 Adamtensta, Sep 21, 2019
    Very cool to see how many ppl that are deep into the details. Personally I like the super sensitive response on the 0-10% as above described. It gives the feeling of an untamed horse (the logo ofc) that needs to be handled gently

    Sent from my CLT-L29 using Tapatalk
     
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  25. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
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    #25 AlfistaPortoghese, Sep 21, 2019
    100% same here, although I admit it sacrifices ride comfort. I deem it’s more fun than uncomfortable, so I like it and wouldn’t trade it.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
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