F430 f1 shifting woes | FerrariChat

F430 f1 shifting woes

Discussion in '360/430' started by aslowdodge, Sep 30, 2019.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. aslowdodge

    aslowdodge Karting

    Jun 5, 2004
    206
    Marietta, Georgia
    Just an update. On my amber slow down lights.
    I had a new pump installed , the 50 amp one with higher volume pump head, new accumulator, electronic relay put in, and system bled. Still missing shifts.
    My guy says he needs to take accentuator out and probably rebuilt.
    Any other thoughts?
     
  2. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 22, 2002
    18,772
    you mean the f1 actuator? yes most likely
     
  3. aslowdodge

    aslowdodge Karting

    Jun 5, 2004
    206
    Marietta, Georgia
    yes, that one. I wonder how long they last and if it is a regular rebuild item
     
  4. BruceC

    BruceC Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 26, 2018
    249
    Tucson, AZ
    I think same problem here. Feedback from makers of the digital relay & Craig Waterman (web F1 consultant) suggested the intermittent nature in my case pointed to a leak in the hydraulic circuit. Finally got on our local indie's Leonardo analyzer last week and his thought was the ediff solenoid/valve appears to be the likely culprit. Also ordered an accumulator, but we don't think that's the problem.

    While shopping for the accumulator I stumbled on a thread in FC that talked extensively about loose actuator bleed screws allowing air into the hydraulic circuit and causing problems [ https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/f430-removing-f1-actuator-to-tighten-bleed-screws.575003/#post-145958796 ], but they're not easy to get to and are going with the solenoid valve for now. Part's on order - will post an update after it's installed & tested.
     
    aslowdodge likes this.
  5. aslowdodge

    aslowdodge Karting

    Jun 5, 2004
    206
    Marietta, Georgia
    Interesting Bruce. I'm reading that link and will forward that to my tech. Hope he doesn't get offended with me offering suggestions. Maybe he can tighten them and determine if they were loose. I thought if they were loose liquid would leak, but based on the thread it can be dry but air can stlll get in. It would be nice if it was a tightening of the bleed screws and not having to send it out for a rebuild.
    What parts did you order? Keep us posted what you find.
     
  6. BruceC

    BruceC Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 26, 2018
    249
    Tucson, AZ
    My indie ordered an e-diff solenoid valve (see pic - don't know if that is the P/N or not). If I understood the online consultant (Craig Waterman) correctly, he said the leak rate shouldn't exceed 60 cc/min. If we're interpreting the Leonardo analyzer correctly, my leak rate was 75.6 cc/min (second pic - a little hard to read from sun glare).

    With the Scud ing Swiss smart relay module I have been getting fault code #1 periodically for ~ 9 or 10 months = "pump cycle is too long." Initially, I just ignored it thinking it was a nuisance alarm until I started experiencing occasional shifting problems about a half year ago. Gradually the module faults and shifting problems increased to the point where I am no longer driving until we can try out the new parts. We're thinking a leaky valve would get progressively worse over time, so fingers crossed that's the issue - stay tuned!

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
    aslowdodge likes this.
  7. aslowdodge

    aslowdodge Karting

    Jun 5, 2004
    206
    Marietta, Georgia
    Thanks Bruce. How often are you getting shifting problems. After about 25 minutes of driving I’m getting them as frequently as every 3rd shift both up and down. So the valve can’t be tightened? Does that mean that valve needs a new o ring or has it just gone bad?
    When will you find out?
     
  8. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,985
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    That is the part number and the image is from our main sponsor, Ricambi.
     
  9. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie

    what is exactly a "missing shifts". You press the paddle and nothing happens? Or there's a transmission error light on?

     
  10. BruceC

    BruceC Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 26, 2018
    249
    Tucson, AZ
    In my case, the F1 trans doesn't respond to paddle input for approx 5 seconds (feels like an eternity). Frequency was once every couple of drives to now occurring at least once every time I drive the car. Originally it only occurred going from neutral to first gear - now can happen with any gear & up or down shifts. I don't always get an amber "slow down light," but those have increased in frequency as well.
     
  11. BruceC

    BruceC Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 26, 2018
    249
    Tucson, AZ
    We opted to just order a new valve - hadn't seen any posts where owners were just replacing o-rings, but maybe that's a viable option. Valve was ordered from Eurospares last week - unsure about the ETA at this point. I'll give a quick update when it arrives and I know our mech. can schedule me in.
     
  12. APA#1

    APA#1 Formula 3

    Nov 5, 2003
    1,311
    Central Florida
    On my Lambo I also had loose accumulator screws that caused similar problems. You think access to a 430 is bad, check out my video detailing what I had to do to access them on a Murcielago.

     
  13. aslowdodge

    aslowdodge Karting

    Jun 5, 2004
    206
    Marietta, Georgia
    My shifting problems usually start to occur after driving for about 20 minutes or so. In first when I pull the lever to shift into second it would go into neutral and be stuck there for about 10 seconds until I can finally get it back into gear. Along with his came the amber slow down light and the occasional flicker of the F1 error light.

    My Ferrari tech examined the car and said that the F1 pump was going bad, said it was really hot. Doing research I found that usually it was the pump motor and not the pump head that would go bad. I ordered the Scud Ing smart emt1 relay advanced version and ordered a new pump motor which is a 50 amp motor with dual bearings and bigger than the stock 30 amp motor from Juri. This is about 50% larger than my stock pump motor. The installation of these two components did nothing to change but with the new really I discovered this

    The smart emt1 relay recorded these errors;
    Fault code 1: Too long hydraulic pump run cycle - happened 2 times
    Fault code 2: Pump forced shutdown after too long run cycle - happened more than 10 times
    Fault code 5: Pump current too high - happened more than 10 times

    I purchased a newer F1 pump head from Juri that is larger and higher capacity as well as a new accumulator. My Ferrari tech installed these and bled the system and driving home I still had shifting issues except now instead of getting stuck in neutral it would just not shift. For example downshifting from fourth or third I would pull the paddle and it would not shift but over the next couple seconds you could hear the car trying to shift down to third a few times. This was without repeatedly pulling the downshift pedal. Eventually I was able to downshift into third. With the smart emt1 I am able to watch when the pump runs because the blue LED comes on and I don’t see it running for much more than a few seconds at a time. It usually will come on anywhere between 1 to 3 regular shifts.
    I still have the same shifting issues except on the drive back it did not go into neutral, just refused to shift to the next selected gear.
    Also I only saw the yellow slow down light come on a few times despite having over 20 shifting mishaps. Again the shifting errors only occurred after about 20 minutes of driving.


    When we pulled out the old accumulator the nitrogen filled bladder still felt pretty full as it was hard to compress but there’s no determining if it is lost some pressure or not. Anyway that issue has been taken care of with the new accumulator. It seems that the next logical step would be to see the F1 actuator itself. The concepts of the air bubble being in the actuator sounds like a possible explanation I don’t know if that can be solved by bleeding it and then tightening the actuator bleed valves back up or if they need to be replaced. It seems this would be the next thing to check before having the entire F1 solenoid rebuilt.

    Anyone else with any ideas?
     
  14. BruceC

    BruceC Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 26, 2018
    249
    Tucson, AZ
    Just a guess, but if your pump is running too long, trying to build sufficient pressure for the hydraulic system to operate properly, then I can see why it would run hot and cause a forced shut down to protect the pump. Internal system leaks, (e.g. like a valve not seating properly allowing bypass) could cause this to my way of thinking.

    First instinct is to blame the pump - I fell into this way of thinking too, but after consulting with a few people that are smarter than me, it seemed that long pump cycles could easily be a byproduct of a completely different problem. And if there's insufficient operating pressure in the hydraulic system, then it seems logical that the F1 transmission won't respond to paddle inputs until the correct operating pressure is achieved. I've seen numerous posts suggesting the pumps are bullet proof, but the motors can burn up if the pump is running a lot more than it's designed to do. I went with the new ediff solenoid valve since the leak rate did exceed the guideline I'd been given and they seem to be listed as one of the more common issues. Shipped price is ~ $450 according to my mechanic, so it won't break the bank if we're wrong.
     
  15. aslowdodge

    aslowdodge Karting

    Jun 5, 2004
    206
    Marietta, Georgia
    Funny thing is if the relay is correct in turning on the blue led when the pump is running, then long runs are not seen by me. I watch for the led like a hawk and it never runs more than a second or two, unless the pump is running after the led goes out.
    When are you getting this valve put in Bruce?

    I would imagine a new pump, accumulator, and bleed should be pressurizing just fine and based on short run times by the led the pressure is coming up fine.

    I’m more inclined to think there is air trapped in the solenoid similar to what you may have. I’m anxious to see what you come up with.
     
  16. BruceC

    BruceC Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 26, 2018
    249
    Tucson, AZ
    Seems if you're frequently getting faults 1 & 2 on the smart relay, the pump is running too long? You can always contact Stef at Scud Ing Swiss with any questions on the digital relay and fault codes. I've found him very helpful & quick to respond.

    I don't have an ETA on the valve delivery yet, but will let you know as soon as I have an update.
     
  17. Zed82

    Zed82 Formula Junior

    Sep 28, 2017
    479
    Sweden
    Just a heads up on the Scud Ing relay. I had some issues with the relay displaying warnings. Sent the car of to two workshops. One that is authorized and one independent specialist. Changed the accumulator and diagnosed the system for hundreds and hundreds of dollars for nothing. They thoroughly tested the system and test drove the car according to the factory specs and all added up. Nothing was wrong and the car still works perfectly. What i´m saying is that you should let someone that knows a lot about the F1-system diagnose the car and not trust the relay warnings that much.
     
    kes7u likes this.
  18. aslowdodge

    aslowdodge Karting

    Jun 5, 2004
    206
    Marietta, Georgia
    I’m taking the relay warnings somewhat lightly, but not ignoring them. It seems that a pump shutdown by the relay occurs after running for 30 seconds. I watch the relay like a hawk and have never seen the blue run led go on for more than 2 seconds at a time.
    I have taken the car in 3 times now and the problem still isn’t pinpointed.
     
    Zed82 likes this.
  19. aslowdodge

    aslowdodge Karting

    Jun 5, 2004
    206
    Marietta, Georgia
    Do you have the relay basic or advanced? If you have a f430 did you tuck the blue module by the relay behind the cover or leave it out?
     
  20. Zed82

    Zed82 Formula Junior

    Sep 28, 2017
    479
    Sweden
    I have the advanced one. It was on the outside and beeping all the time with every pump actuation. Occasionally also got a few errors. Decided in the end to toss it after recommendation from both workshops.
     
  21. BruceC

    BruceC Karting
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 26, 2018
    249
    Tucson, AZ
    I'll only say that I ignored the alerts from the relay module UNTIL I started to get shifting issues. If you don't disable the routine alerts, no question the constant beeping will cause most people to treat the alerts as nuisance alarms. In my case it was a clear precursor to a evolving problem. Considering the complexity of the F1 transmission and the difficulty for even experienced mechanics to diagnose issues, I probably still would not have taken my 430 to a mechanic on module alerts alone, but I do think it can serve as a useful diagnostic aid when F1 issues actually surface.
     
    Michael Parks and Fenz like this.
  22. aslowdodge

    aslowdodge Karting

    Jun 5, 2004
    206
    Marietta, Georgia
    Zed 82
    Did you toss it because of the beeping? I would imagine if you were able to turn off the beeps there would be no reason to toss a perfectly good relay, an electronic one at that.

    Just a fyi for people considering the relay, the beeps have been disabled as a factory default. You now have to enable them.
     
    kes7u likes this.
  23. Zed82

    Zed82 Formula Junior

    Sep 28, 2017
    479
    Sweden
    I tossed it because of the beeping but mostly because it displayed errors without a reason. As I mentioned earlier the system was diagnosed according to factory values and passed the test. I think that the values that trigger these warnings are a bit off in some cases. This according to both workshops I talked to.
     
  24. kes7u

    kes7u Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 18, 2017
    1,136
    Shorewood, MN
    Full Name:
    Kevin
    I still don't understand tossing a perfectly good electronic relay to go back to a mechanical relay which will eventually fail and probably destroy the f1 pump. If the F1 system is not functioning completely appropriately, it will function that way using the mechanical or electronic relay. I have one of the basic units, hidden away at the site of install. I pay no attention to it.

    Kevin
     
  25. Zed82

    Zed82 Formula Junior

    Sep 28, 2017
    479
    Sweden
    Ever heard of a failing relay on a F430?
     

Share This Page