Finally tested F8 on a track!

I am talking about future cars

 

My post is referring to future cars from Ferrari( Maranello) due to regulatory requirements

 

Gotcha. SF90 and 812 GTS sound could be equally as bad as F8.

 

The latter I seriously doubt. The SF90? Hmmm. It might. But considering the fact that it is the flagship car, it might be better. I actually asked the guy I know who went to the F8 test, as he was also at the SF90 launch. The cars were revved during the SF90 launch, and as far as he could remember, the SF90 exhaust was nothing like the F8.

 

I thought it was quieter. But unless side by side hard to differentiate.

Not to me. Although I would trade for a Pista but that is only my personal choice.

 

Sound between 458, 488 and Pista is a subjective element and keep in mind plenty say 488 sounds better than 458. Even Harris said he thought 488 was better sounding than 458 so it depends upon who you are talking to there.

F8 and SF90 suffer from a completely separate issue where there is a distinct lack of sound going on outside these cars.

I'm told on good advice by my head Tech who has heard all these cars race around the Maranello circuit and his take is the 812gts still sounds very good whereas the F8 and SF90 are barely even audible....and just sound much like regular passenger cars being thrashed.

There is a vid on the SF90 going around a circuit and imo it sounds even quieter than F8 shown in the vid here. The sf90 vid was put up on Fchat on another thread. Sounds really bad as well even though it's super quiet. Maybe F8 is just a smidge better.

I think the real kicker with F8 and SF90 is you can't do anything about it now because of all the sensors everywhere.

 

I Hope you are right. So hard to say based on video which is why I appreciate your friend's, 500 ST, Sandro Felisio and Hendry2019's personal experiences and posts. Nothing like hearing the F8 in the flesh and regarding sound looks like it's 1 for 4 positive and regarding driving experience compared to 488 up for debate.

Someone mentioned an engineering reason why the 812 GTS still sounds good regarding location of GPF relative to other engine/exhaust components. I have no engineering background but hypothetically this could be a reason why the 812 GTS while perhaps not sounding as good as an 812 SF without GPF, does not sound as poorly as the F8/SF90 relatively speaking.

Your last sentence bears the crux of the matter for prospective owners. Will the aftermarket offer a solution to the GPF sound without voiding OEM warranty? How much will it improve the sound?

There are many owners, myself included, who like to keep everything OEM and aren't into modding/adding aftermarket components to their exotics. For us buyers, it's take it or leave it regarding the GPF.

 

The 812 is naturally aspirated AND a V12...

As for the turbo models... give them some time, they know very well how important the sound is for the Ferrari customers, so I'm sure that as the technologies continue to evolve, they will slowly find a solution for that.

 

Is it 1. GPF has less accoustic inhibition of a naturally aspirated engine vs turbo?

or

2. Turbo sounds worse than naturally aspirated to begin with ao attaching a GPF is basically adding more insult to injury?

 

I don't think the sensors matter. The aftermarket is already doing GPF delete on BMW, Ford, Porsche etc. It's just a matter of time. Besides, there should at least be a pretty decent possibility of doing a cat delete or a sportscat with GPF. That should help for a start. But so far, it has been impossible for any manufacture to keep the aftermarket out of its ECU so far.
Remember that the engine itself is just a regular engine. As an example of this, the F8 and Pista shares intake system. From that we can deduct that it does not rely on some weird recirculation system. All in all it should work as long as the ECU accepts that the GPF sensors don't get a signal. Mechanically the GPF systems look like they are stand-alone systems with all GPF related components mounted after the collectors.

The systems Milltek have done so far, have been pretty simple. A pipe that resembles a cat delete pipe and then an ECU modification which allows the cars system to function normally after DPF removal.

I'd reckon the main thing will be to get a nice ECU or piggyback tune so that you don't end up with a lean condition due to added flow.

I mean, what would hinder an F8 engine to be run with a Pista tuned ECU?

I'm quite confident that Novi, Capristo, Fabspeed, Kldin, Innotech and the rest of them will do their utmost to see it through.

The US will definitely have a significant audience for this, as it basically allows people to gain power and sound without doing anything illegal - and that in all 50 states as GPF is not mandatory by law.

Let's see what happens. The fat lady has not sung yet

 

This is a great comment.
" I mean, what would hinder an F8 engine to be run with a Pista tuned ECU? ". The engines are 100% the same

 

Anything is achievable but NOT without huge expense and destruction of warranty. These sensors detect any slight change in pressure and pulse.

It depends upon the engine to whether it sounds good or bad plus sound is subjective anyway. Plenty of atmo engines sound terrible. Ferrari's turbo v8's sound amazing IMO! Maybe not loud anymore in F8 and SF90 but all others before the new regulations and GPF sound awesome to the greater majority. There will always be the die hard minority who will insist upon pushing their belief that life stopped at the 458, which is perfectly fine.

The turbo on the engine knocks back the sound which results in less attenuation being required in the muffler vs an Atmo which uses more.

You will note the 488, Pista and F8 use very small muffler units. The addition of a GPF would result in even less attenuation being used in the current muffler to achieve the same volume as a non GPF engine with the valves closed and muffler in play.

With the valves open and the system running as a straight through pipe the GPF and cat will definitely cut back the volume. This is where higher flow cats will open up the sound more. Most of the problem today is with the sound/noise regulations becoming tougher.

The sensors definitely matter unless you have an ecu remap. That means no warranty. The fat Lady has sung there. Not sure how many will want to pay this level of coin to tear up their warranty? Maybe once the car is outside of warranty and has significantly depreciated, warranty may not become not so important to some.

 

A lot of owners are already installing warranty voiding ecu's and piggybacks. What would stop the aftermarket from developing udetectable GPF delete piggybacks? It has been done for years for diesels, and the current Ferrari Novi boxes are undetectable I believe.
There's an audience and there are money to be made - and the aftermarket has been doing similar stuff for the past two decades. Alternatively, as is also often seen, the stock ECU is removed and another is used for the tune. There are so many ways to go about this, that I'm quite certain that the aftermarket will find a way. Heck, some places have equipment so that they can reset anything stored in there if warranty is needed.

It's no different than the world of computer software and Ant-Virus. The hackers will develop their ways as quickly as the developers can make them. Same goes with the aftermarket tuning industry. It's like when the GTR first hit the streets. Loads of people arguing that it would never be received well by the tuner comunity as it was impossible to get into the ECU. Less than two months after release it was done and Nissan couldn't do anything about it.

Demand and money is what drives this market, and plenty of both out there. Some of those guys working in this field are pretty clever guys.

Let's see how it plays out

Initially I think it will be interesting to see what happens when people remove the mufflers and.replace the cats but leave in the GPF. I think that is where it will start.

 

Yeah maybe. But it all costs. And to fix this is not easy. Sure glad it's not my problem. Tech here assures me nothing is undetectable now where HQ is concerned. Maybe there's some truth to that, maybe not, who knows. I guess those who play around with the car will get to find out when they have an engine or drive-line related problem how much truth is in that. From what he told me HO is really right on top of any aftermarket exhaust mods big time these days. They claim it as being the bane of their warranty related problems in their late model cars and place huge emphasis on it.

PS read post 127 https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/new-gpf-worse-exhaust-note-on-new-ferraris.602420/page-6

Re map on stock ECU not an option due to fail safes. Stand alone ECU required. So there goes the piggy back option.

 

Exactly. future has a v8 with elec assist, no turbos. So it will sound great. This may be 7+ years away though.

 

Can't really compare $100K GTR or $50K Supra with $500K SF90. You think new SF90 owners with all the new expensive hybrid tech, battery, etc. are going to risk their 3 year OEM warranty just for sound?

Also, some dealers can detect whether an ECU has been tampered with even if the tune is reset before being taken in for service. Whether this alone is grounds for declining warranty work is another issue.

 

In 7 years there will be electric everything..... Even if not, the sound restrictions at that time along with even further advanced ECU fail safes will make it impossible as it pretty well is now. Tech says Ferrari no longer wants anyone messing around with the emission systems which are now built into the product.

 

Agree in many ways, and also with you Shadowfax. My main reference is more the guys mounting Novitec boxes to their F12, 488 and so forth.
My thinking is that if there's a market for the current lineup of Ferrari, Lamborghini and McLaren cars, why wouldn't there be in the future? If the market for things that voids the warranty on high end cars was not there, a devision like Novitec Rosso would not be there. But their boxes seem to be a pretty popular tuning item world wide.

I only mentioned the Nissan as an example of how a seemingly un-hackable ECU was not only broken into, but also in a way so that it could not be detected.

I'm no expert, to me it just seems logical that the aftermarket finds a way, as well as it seems like there's always customers, warranty or no warranty.

I can fully understand why many won't risk it. As you say, it's uncertain how an issue will be handled should a problem arise. One of the common arguments here is of course if the manufacture can claim that the modification was the cause. Sometimes it's down to the dealer. Some dealers are perfectly fine with complete cat delete systems, while some dealers have said they will void warranty if just a simple Capristo muffler is installed.
The local dealer here have no issues doing a complete cat delete system and a Capristo remote on a 488 with full warranty, but they won't touch the 488 Forza controller as it has the ability to close the exhaust valves at all times which apparently can lead to overheating and damage of the turbos, if used on track or during spirited driving.

So it might open the possibility that a dealer will be fine with it warranty wise, like some are with sportscats or cat deletes.

It's a grey area for sure.

 

^Agreed. We have the Magnuson Moss Act but do you really want to get into an argument with your Ferrari master technician and dealership on whether your modifications installed by a 3rd party contributed to the warranty claim issue? What if you have to lawyer up, is it worth the time/money/stress?

Some dealers are mod friendly, others will discourage you from adding HRE's or exhaust.

 

I could be mistaken but I thought some of the Ferrari marketing stated that they run different cams. Lift and duration are both complications and limitations to an ECU tune.

 

The other part of this that's frustrating for me isn't just from a driving perspective but also from a spectator perspective. As a connoisseur of driving these incredible machines, I also really appreciate getting to see them out in the wild. Even from behind the wheel of a 488, you have to appreciate seeing another one drive past in the wild. After a few drives in the 488 I really loved the sound, but I never truly appreciated the sound until I got hear one blow past me a full throttle. The car makes an incredible sound (albeit not a 458) that conjures an emotional response. These cars give me goosebumps, whether I'm driving or if I'm simply watching one drive past. Its part of the experience and its part of why people are willing to spend so much money one what is essentially a really expensive toy for grownups.

Even if they can come up with solutions that pump sound into the cabin, I could care less. Its something about just knowing that the sound your car is making is echoing off all the buildings nearby and that there some kid, who reminds me of myself growing up, has goosebumps due to the excitement that only a Ferrari symphony can produce. It really makes me sad that this is the direction that were going.

 

Amen to this!

Now that I've heard F8 live from outside I can't personally really tell a difference between F8 and 488 sound, but I could not compare them head to head as there was only F8s present. I personally think it sounds okay from outside and don't think any new owners of F8s will be that disappointed if they come from 488 to F8. Now the inside noise I have no idea about but IMO it sounds fine especially full throttle, it's different off course than the NA days of Ferrari but this is the path we are going so just accept it.

Now if the cars I've heard was tampered with by Ferrari to make them sound better then the cars that will hit the street I am not sure off course

 

Thanks for the review. Your opinion of the outside sound being at least as good as 488 is similar to several other posts. I am ok with 488 sound and it looks like I will equally be Ok with F8 sound. There are several on here who already detest the 488 sound and are more likely to be equally overly critical of F8 sound IMHO