308 83 QV Fuel Pump - Bosch 0580254975 vs Bosch 69523 | FerrariChat

308 83 QV Fuel Pump - Bosch 0580254975 vs Bosch 69523

Discussion in '308/328' started by Nuno Andrade, Nov 22, 2019.

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  1. Nuno Andrade

    Nuno Andrade Karting

    Aug 24, 2019
    154
    Houston
    Full Name:
    Nuno Andrade
    F chatters, I need a fuel pump replacement and it looks like my is the one with the retention valve inside.
    Can you please confirm if Bosch 0580254975 vs Bosch 69523 are the same pump and if they are the correct ones for my car?
    Thanks
     
  2. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
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    Brian Crall
    69523 looks to be one with an internal valve as well. I strongly suggest converting to the external valve. If that requires a fuel pipe 119305 it was NLA for a long time. T Rutlands has had them reproduced and they are now available again.
     
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  3. Motob

    Motob Formula 3
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Nov 11, 2003
    2,238
    Frederick, Maryland
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    Brian Brown
    As Rifledriver stated, Bosch 0580254975 is the same as 69523, or Ferrari 113976. This has the internal check valve with only a steel adapter that screws into it to convert it to a compression fitting connection for the fuel line. This is the correct pump for a 1983 308QV. The later pump (1984 308QV) has the external check valve that has a banjo fuel line connection with a cap nut on the end.

    If you look at your original pump, it should have the long Bosch number stamped into the outside of the pump body. For some reason Bosch uses the long number to identify parts, but sells them under the different short number.

    Brian Brown
    San Francisco Motorsports
     
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  4. Nuno Andrade

    Nuno Andrade Karting

    Aug 24, 2019
    154
    Houston
    Full Name:
    Nuno Andrade
    Why will you recommend to change to the external valve one? Any specific reason ...or just thinking about a potential fail of the valve in the future (easier/cheaper to address) ?


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat
     
  5. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
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    Brian Crall
    Internal valves were junk and prone to failure. The external valve is a superior design and if needed can be replaced as an individual part. I am actually shocked any internal valves are still around.
     
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  6. QV308

    QV308 Karting

    Jan 1, 2006
    105
    Germany
    Full Name:
    Ross
    Yes, the 5 digit short code is solely a Bosch USA / Canada aftermarket thing. The standard 10 digit part numbers were often too much for some US distributors.

    The 0 580 254 975 pump was originally developed for Mercedes-Benz (release according to the archive was 09.1976), then later found its way in OE series onto Ford Europe, Ferrari, Peugeot, Bentley, and Rolls Royce applications (all using Bosch K-Jetronic).

    The later 0 580 254 947 (Bosch short # 69532 / Ferrari p/n 121727) as both you and Rifledriver mentioned with the external valve has an identical flow rate to the earlier pump.

    Unfortunately the official website for the Bosch Classic technical archive with all the old K-Jetronic (CIS) component detail is going through a revamp at the moment, so you can't access the fuel pump p/n data. It should be up again in the near future though: http://www.bosch-classic.com/en/internet/bosch_classic/technisches_archiv/wartungsarbeiten.html
     
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  7. NYCFERRARIS

    NYCFERRARIS Formula 3

    Mar 2, 2004
    1,009
    Bosch web site referenced - still down -- what are the full pump parts needed to upgrade the 83 QV to the later - suggested 84QV f-pump -- is it 69523 that we order - then a full pipe from Ted and then an "external valve" ?
     
  8. snoutmeat

    snoutmeat Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    37
    Why does Bosch like to make life so hard on us? I have searched online fruitlessly for a 10-digit to 5-digit cross-reference guide. Has anyone found one?`

    Here's what I'm seeing:
    --69523(aka 0 580 254 975, aka original QV pump with internal check valve) is getting hard to find.
    --69532 may be easier to find, but the metal pipe (part 119305) required to fit the newer 69532 to my QV costs twice as much (~$300) as the pump (~$150).
    --the primary argument used against the older 69523 is that it has an internal check valve, which is not replaceable, and is "junk". My experience (taking apart my 69523) is that the check valve screws into the outlet neck just like a jumbo-sized schrader tire valve...making it easy to remove, inspect, clean, etc. (put a couple of small screwdrivers into the slots, then rotate the screwdrivers -- or the pump -- and the valve threads out). I don't know if it's available separately from the pump -- haven't gotten that far yet -- but on a Porsche forum, someone is endorsing the pump with the external check valve because, if the valve fails, you don't have to replace the whole pump....just the check valve. But he was quoting a price of $125 for that external valve, which is getting pretty close to the price of the whole 69523 pump.

    --a Bosch spec sheet found in several spots online shows that Bosch 0 580 254 984 is identical to the stock QV pump (flow, pressure, dimensions) EXCEPT that the inlet is 12mm (3/8 inch) instead of 15mm (1/2 inch). This pump was used on a whole mess of Porsches, Mercedes, and BMWs and is easy to find. An online seller says that the 5-digit number for this pump is 69513, but I'd be more comfortable seeing that on an official Bosch document. For whatever reason, most places selling the pump show the 10-digit number OR the 5-digit number, but not both, and the 69513 seems more widely available and slightly cheaper than the 0 580 254 984. They look identical, but could have internal differences (PSI and flow rate).

    My car had been sitting for many years, and I suspect the untimely demise of my brand-new 69523 fuel pump was the result of clogging (even though I had drained the tank), so my plan now is to install a generic inline fuel filter between the tank and the pump and also step down the hose diameter from 15mm to 12 mm, then use the widely available 0 580 254 984 pump instead. I'm 1000 miles away from my car at the moment, and I can't remember exactly how much space there is for the pump -- hoping there's enough room for both the filter and the pump. As I recall, the hose goes from the left-side tank through a tunnel in the right-side tank and the pump is nestled in a sort of cutout in the right-side tank. Hoping there's enough room for the filter either in that cutout or perhaps before the hose goes into the tunnel.

    Thoughts?
     
  9. snoutmeat

    snoutmeat Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    37
    Update: success! Car is running again.
    Here's the Bosch fuel pump chart (swiped from the Pelican Parts forum for Porsches), which shows that the pumps ending in 975 and 984 are identical except for the inlet size. I ordered a 984 from Pelican Parts. I grabbed fuel line from the local auto parts store.
    I also ordered a Wix 33299 fuel filter (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CSGTAA/) which fit inline between the two tanks as an extra line of defense. I don't know if my previous brand-new fuel pump died after 10 minutes because there had been something wrong with the pump or because of lingering crud in the tank, but a $10 fuel filter seems like good insurance for a $150 pump.

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  10. snoutmeat

    snoutmeat Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    37
    Here's the setup, with the fuel "prefilter" on the line that goes to the fuel pump, tucked in between the two tanks. Yes, I know there's a screen on the outlet from the fuel pump, but 1) the "bung" was so resistant to loosening that I was afraid of damaging the tank, 2) from photos, the mesh looks pretty coarse, and 3) all that crud on the inlet side of the old fuel pump came from somewhere! Perhaps my fuel tank strainer mesh is torn or missing?
     

    Attached Files:

  11. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,040
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    #11 Steve Magnusson, Sep 10, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2021
    99% chance the plastic mesh strainer portion of the fuel tank strainer has swollen, the adhesive degraded, and fallen off the metal part of the strainer inside the tank (so no sin to add that inline filter). I found both strainers on my TR had fallen apart (and, once the plastic/mesh part has dried out on the bench for a few weeks, it shrank back down to having a much tighter fit on the metal tube part):

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    How did you handle the outlet nipple of the fuel tank strainer being for a 15mm hose, but the inline filter inlet nipple being somewhat smaller?
     
  12. snoutmeat

    snoutmeat Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    37
    The difference in nipple sizes is 3mm (not a huge difference); I used a hose that fit properly on the filter and pump, but was pretty snug on the fuel tank. You can see it in the picture. Do you think I'm asking for long-term trouble by stretching the hose? I had planned to use a barbed brass coupler with the bigger diameter on one side and the smaller diameter on the other, but I ended up ordering the wrong size (too small); if I had ordered the right size, I don't know where I'd fit it. If I had found a fuel filter with 15mm nipples, I could have used a brass coupler/reducer downstream from the filter. In a perfect world, I'd find a fuel filter with a 15mm (Ferrari size) inlet and a 1/2 inch outlet so I could kill two birds with one stone.

    In somewhat related news, the new pump does have the same "internal" check valve as the original Ferrari pump -- the check valve that's disparaged as "junk" on this forum. I wish I had more context for this proclamation. It's only "internal" in the sense that it's screwed down inside the output neck of the pump, but you don't need to disassemble the pump to get at it. A pair of needlenose pliers will take it right out. If you've removed a schrader valve from a bike/car tire, the process is the same (but the valve is bigger). I don't see how it could fail (unless maybe it got clogged with junk?), and somehow the "internal valve" design is good enough for all those Porsche 911s out there, but I have saved the old valve just in case.
     
  13. snoutmeat

    snoutmeat Rookie

    Jun 23, 2013
    37
    PS thanks for the photo. That strainer has a much finer mesh than I'd expected...I saw an illustration somewhere that suggested something coarser. If that nipple had wanted to unscrew on my car, I could have investigated further. Do you think the failure of the adhesive was an ethanol issue?
     
  14. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
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    #14 Steve Magnusson, Sep 10, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2021
    You're probably OK, but keep an eye on it occasionally to watch for any cracking/splitting in the outer layer.

    Yes, definitely an extra contributor to the plastic swelling and the adhesive failing, but putting anything non-metallic continuously in gasoline (even ethanol-free gasoline) is not a "forever-OK" thing.
     
  15. 85QVEuro

    85QVEuro Formula Junior

    Jan 15, 2021
    394
    NYC
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    Joe
    I need to replace the fuel pump in my 85 Mondial QV (Euro) - The pump I took out was Bosch 0 580 464 125 and this is still available from FCP Euro and other suppliers. However, I am confused by the fact that the interchange lists on FC list Bosch 0 580 254 975 as the right pump for 83-85 308s and Mondials. My instinct is to buy the same pump that was in there as all of the plumbing appears original but the different interchange # warrants some research.

    I do not know the origin of the Bosch 0 580 464 125 that I removed from the car and whether it was original or a replacement and the car never ran under my ownership so I have no clues there either. If it helps, the accumulator in the car was Bosch 0 438 170 004.

    Appreciate any help on this - Thanks
     
  16. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2001
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    #16 Steve Magnusson, Jan 13, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2022
    Your car (and the plumbing) has been updated to use the later style CIS fuel pump with the replaceable check valve (so you don't want/need the stock Bosch 0580254975 = Bosch USA 69523). The minor downside to using Bosch 0580464125 is that is a slightly smaller body/pump head CIS fuel pump so (in theory) it has very slightly lower max specs. This is a picture of 0580464125 which shows it comes with the black zig-zag piece to increase the outer diameter to fit applications that have a mounting bracket using the larger later Bosch CIS fuel pump:
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    Getting another 0580464125 would probably be OK except under very high sustained RPM. The later larger Bosch CIS fuel pump with the replaceable check valve (that would be more functionally equivalent to your stock fuel pump) is Bosch 0580254947 = Bosch USA 69532.

    PS I see on many F part supplier websites that they are selling Bosch 0580464125 as being Ferrari PN 121727 -- but this is not quite right. Ferrari PN 121727 = Bosch 0580254947 = Bosch USA 69532.
     
  17. Jonny Law

    Jonny Law F1 Rookie
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    May 6, 2008
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    Over yonder.
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    Is there a replacement fuel pump with high pressure?
     
  18. 85QVEuro

    85QVEuro Formula Junior

    Jan 15, 2021
    394
    NYC
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    Joe
    Thanks for the detailed reply and recommendations. If I use Bosch 0580254947 = Bosch USA 69532, do I need to add a check valve? Also, do you know if the fitting size is the same as
    0580464125? Thanks again
     
  19. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    25,040
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
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    Steve Magnusson
    Usually, the CIS pumps with the replaceable check valve come with a new check valve already installed (like the pic I posted of 0580464125, and 69532 from rockauto: https://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/bosch,69532,fuel+pump,6256 although they show out-of-stock). Don't know if the thread size for mounting the check valve is the same, but I do know there are different check valves with different thread sizes (some M10, some M12).
     
  20. 85QVEuro

    85QVEuro Formula Junior

    Jan 15, 2021
    394
    NYC
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    Joe
    Thanks Steve - I'm going to go with another Bosch 0580464125 (which I think is Bosch 69435 US) - they are widely available and cheap and my priority is to get the car running after the rebuild. If I find there is fuel starvation at high RPMs, I can always switch out the pump. I plan to use a new accumulator (Bosch 0 438 170 004) and wanted to ask you about the injectors listed on the FC interchange - Bosch 0 437 502 047, will these be correct?

    The rest of the FI unit is at CIS Flowtech to have the fuel distributor, warm up regulator and air flow meter rebuilt.

    Again, really appreciate your help here as online research has been all over the place in terms of suggested part #s etc.
     
  21. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
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    Yes, that's the correct (latest production) CIS injector for all K-Jet and KE-Jet Ferrari models (only KE3-Jet Ferrari use a different CIS injector).
     
  22. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
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    Brian Crall

    The spring for the valve was not well captured and wound itself out of position and would no longer hold the valve in the closed position. They were such a well known problem Ferrari chose not only to quit using them but for some time offered a kit to update the early cars. The external valves were not ony designed to be replaced and offered as a repair part by Bosch they were also redesigned to avoid the same issue. I do not distribute wives tales as so many do.
     

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