Montana registration crack-down | Page 18 | FerrariChat

Montana registration crack-down

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by Terence Courtnage, Oct 25, 2018.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. arizonaitalian

    arizonaitalian F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Oct 29, 2010
    19,897
    Wyoming
    For those asking why the challenges here, if you don’t understand why some taxpayers would want others to follow the laws as they do and pay taxes per the regs, then you aren’t much of a student of human nature.

    Note I said “per the regs” and not some nonsense about fair share or too much or too little. If one can lower their tax bill by following the regs, more power to them (for example the poster above in TN - who is going to show us how it’s done). If, otoh, one ignores the regs to lower their tax bill, well, that’s pretty obvious why other tax payers frown upon that.
     
    Saabfreak, showme1946 and Nospinzone like this.
  2. arizonaitalian

    arizonaitalian F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Oct 29, 2010
    19,897
    Wyoming
    #427 arizonaitalian, Nov 27, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
    Yes, and why do some sit behind a key board and preach their morality/standard for discussions and beliefs into others (Sometimes more than once?)

    Just asking.

    btw - since you asked and thus clearly are ignorant of the answer, I’ll provide a hint for you. People care if one tax payer doesn’t follow the laws for one simple and obvious reason, tax “losses” of revenue due to non compliance are part of the budget after all. In many states the car reg fees fund roads and related infrastructure. Most residents and drivers seem to care about that. Most are conscientious enough to pay their reg fees to contribute to that. Some folks apparently prefer to let their fellow residents pay for that.

    (And, I feel I must add for those that bring feelings and opinion to a fact fight, saying one owns lots of cars and thus it’s “unfair” to pay lots of reg fees when you only drive as much as a guy with one car, doesn’t change the laws. It gives some the ability to justify their ignoring and working around the regs. But it didn’t make it legal. If you think life (and taxes) are fair, well you missed some lessons. (Yup, I get that life also isn’t fair in that some wealthy people break the laws to save on taxes and thus other folks just have to view that as unfair. That’s all well and good when it’s “some rich guy”, it’s less good when it’s people you know and/or are in your community.))

    Lastly, it’s patent nonsense to say that all, or even most, regs (tax and otherwise) are subject to opinion. Many are simple and fact based with no or little room for opinion or interpretation. Don’t mistake “a matter of opinion” for taking a different position on a law. There are many tax laws that require one to form a subjective position (largely around “more likely than not” and words like “substantial” or “bona fide”). Those are the exceptions, not the rule. The vast majority of tax regs are simple, easily verified items or math.
     
    showme1946 likes this.
  3. rampante550

    rampante550 Formula Junior

    Jul 20, 2010
    553
    NC
    Full Name:
    D Day
    I'm so mixed on this subject. I used to think it was cool to see an f-car with Montana plates - it was like a little wink-wink, nod-nod for sticking it to the man. But as I've learned more about the hoops people will jump through (like keeping a car in a warehouse for 12 months for example), I kinda wished these industrious, successful, smart, wealthy people (not being sarcastic here to be clear) would invest a little bit of that energy and money into influencing representatives and get the laws modified in their respective states.
     
  4. arizonaitalian

    arizonaitalian F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Oct 29, 2010
    19,897
    Wyoming
    they would do that if they cared about the principle or others...but they care about their $. (not different than anyone else in that regard)
     
  5. EastMemphis

    EastMemphis Formula 3
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    May 25, 2019
    1,719
    Memphis, TN
    Full Name:
    John
    Personally, I never did mind about the little things. So if you want to discuss the legalities of Montana registration in Tennessee, please contact my attorney. They offer a free consultation.

    http://www.bennettlawofficepc.com/

    Have a nice day!
     
  6. RonH

    RonH Formula 3

    May 29, 2016
    1,061
    Newport Coast, California
    Full Name:
    Ron H
    EastMemphis, your response seems a little off. Vrsurgeon provided a very helpful post that quoted the actual Tennessee statue on the subject which clearly provides registration is required in 30 days. You the disputed the actual statute citation and stated “it is entirely legal in the state of TN”. When asked to support your own statement (which on its face is totally contrary to the plain language of the statute), you refused and told arizonaitalian to contact a lawyer. This odd behavior makes one believe there is no basis for your original statement.

     
  7. EastMemphis

    EastMemphis Formula 3
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    May 25, 2019
    1,719
    Memphis, TN
    Full Name:
    John
    #432 EastMemphis, Nov 27, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
    I included a link to my attorney and they provide a free consultation so if you are so caught up in this thread that you NEED answers, please avail yourself to speaking to the firm who handles my legal affairs in regard to Montana LLC registration.

    Do you understand all the intricacies of your taxation details or do you trust professionals that they are doing it correctly? I can state categorically that I am doing things legally because my attorney says so. That's good enough for me. I don't have to understand the law or the statutes. That's what attorneys are for and why I use them for many of my affairs.

    As a side note, we recently received an eye watering tax bill from our county in regard to our million dollar plus aircraft. We hired another attorney who specializes in county tax law and he got the bill reduced to $180. So another case of over taxation thwarted by good representation. Does that make me a tax cheat or a savvy citizen?
     
    AD211 likes this.
  8. arizonaitalian

    arizonaitalian F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Oct 29, 2010
    19,897
    Wyoming
    #433 arizonaitalian, Nov 27, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
    err, okay. FYI, I've consulted with them in the past (when I investigated the MT issue as it relates to AZ and CA for myself and decided against it). If/when I move to TN, I might check with them again.

    At least you now admit you don't know the regs (the "little things" as you call them), so its a bit odd that you called out someone who did take the time to look them up when your knowledge of same seems to be using the boilerplate law firm among whom's members created this industry. If that's good enough for you, that's great. But it certainly weakens your position when attempting to post your opinion here.
     
    Saabfreak and Texas Forever like this.
  9. arizonaitalian

    arizonaitalian F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Oct 29, 2010
    19,897
    Wyoming
    The law firm in MT that is the main player in this "industry" told him he could do it. That's good enough for him (and many). He/they don't want to know more for obvious reasons.

    Edit: anyone serious about this matter would detail how they comply with the vehicle domicile issue between states and/or how they satisfy the bona fide corporate use statute. Folks that want to avoid taxes and have legal cover to do so, usually get a legal advice and move on with life but cannot or will not detail what the relevant regs are nor how they comply. (fwiw, there have been posters here in the past that have detailed how they comply. Many people that use the MT reg move do actually do physical/tangible things with their vehicles to comply. Many don't bother.)
     
  10. arizonaitalian

    arizonaitalian F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Oct 29, 2010
    19,897
    Wyoming
    #435 arizonaitalian, Nov 27, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
    For those that are into, whatcha call em - oh yeah, some facts (aka details), here is the simplest version out there of how this works (from what I believe is the largest law firm on this topic - its the firm our TN poster uses):

    http://www.bennettlawofficepc.com/registration-services.html

    From their website:

    Registration Services - Forming a Montana business entity (usually a Limited Liability Company) may help you eliminate all sales taxes and minimize license fees upon the purchase and registration of a recreational vehicle or any other vehicles. A Montana business entity can take ownership of a new vehicle, or a vehicle you currently own, and register the motor vehicle in Montana, which has no sales tax and low registration fees.

    By following these steps, a non-resident of Montana may enjoy the benefits mentioned above:
    1. Have a Bennett Law Office PC establish a Montana business entity for you;
    2. Purchase (or transfer the ownership of) the motor vehicle in the name of the business entity - such that the name of the business entity and Montana address of the business entity (the address of your attorney and registered agent in Montana), and not your personal name and home address, appear on the reverse of the “Manufacturer’s Certificate of Origin” (the pre-title document given to you by the dealership from whom you purchased the motor vehicle) or the title, if the vehicle was purchased used or already owned by you; and
    3. Operate the motor vehicle in a manner that complies with the laws of the state where the vehicle is located and operated. We help you do so by researching the laws of all states, such that we can provide you with the legal guidance you need to avoid violating the laws of those states. [all emphasis mine]
    4. There are no forms for you to complete in order to establish the business entity. The staff of Bennett Law Office PC drafts and files all the necessary documents. You only need to call our office, and provide information including your contact information, what you are purchasing, and what you would like to name your business entity to one of our attorneys.
    5. In addition, Bennett Law Office PC will also assist you in renewing the vehicle in your state of residence if you choose to do so in the future, and we will “wind-up” the company for you should you at some point no longer need the company. Tax liabilities upon renewing the vehicle in your state of residence are regulated by each individual state. In many states we can assist you with the renewing the registration of the vehicle with no or minimum tax liabilities. We will be glad to discuss the research we have on these liabilities regarding your specific state of residence.
    _____________

    I highlighted the part that is the "difficult bit" for most that want to register their cars in MT. Complying with your states' laws is your "to do", not the law firm's. They will research and inform you of the relevant regs, but its your job to comply. Its not easy in most states *if* the car is physically in that state for more than a defined amount of time. The other difficult bit is complying with your states' definition of a bona fide business use for the vehicle.

    Of course all this comes down to (aside from ethics), "risk"...

    As a reminder, this thread started because one state (GA) started making the risk real for MT registered vehicles. Your state may or may not do the same. Time will tell. Its not like governments are increasingly looking for revenue nor are the general populous showing less admiration for the well off and their toys...
     
  11. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 13, 2009
    15,875
    Charleston, SC
    Full Name:
    Curt
    Just pointing out what is printed on the internet as the actual law... I'm not going to be suing my lawyer for misrepresentation if the facts told to me are indeed incorrect....

    There are a lot of people that don't pay taxes.. or rather justify not paying taxes because "government overtaxes"..
     
  12. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    75,396
    Texas!
    I've dealt with Bennett's office for a long time. Golf pros have been using MT to avoid registration and sales taxes since Christ was a teenager. However, the golf pros almost never take their bus home during the off season. They usually leave them somewhere for servicing.

    I'd be surprised if Bennett will give specific advice about keeping your MT registered car in your home state. All they have said in the past is a MT registration is legal, which of course it is. What they don't say is whether you have to register your car in your home state if you park it in your garage. Keep in mind, in many states, failure to register your car is a misdemeanor. If you are a licensed professional, being charged with a misdemeanor is a reportable offense.

    I'm a tax guy who is known for innovative ideas for saving money. However, I don't do stupid ****. Not registering your car in your home state is stupid **** if you keep the car there. You might get away with it; then again, maybe not.
     
  13. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 13, 2009
    15,875
    Charleston, SC
    Full Name:
    Curt
    Texas, you've seen it with income taxes and evasion. I imagine the same applies here.

    I'm personally a little tired of the "rules and laws apply to you.. not to me" attitude in this country. I get a ticket for 65 in a 55 and its "you shouldn't speed". When they get the same ticket it's all about how the officer was wrong, and the laws aren't right, the 55 limit is absurd, etc. etc.
     
    rampante550, rob lay, RonH and 2 others like this.
  14. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 13, 2009
    15,875
    Charleston, SC
    Full Name:
    Curt
    What I've seen in the last 20 years.. when the economy is a rockin' everyone looks the other way. As soon as things turn south and the music stops, all the misdeeds and "errors" that were overlooked suddenly become reasons to terminate employment and prosecute. There are a lot of states that have significant debt issues... I think they will come after owners with MT license plates. It's only a matter of time and it's too easy to prosecute. Just tell law enforcement to ticket Montana plates more aggressively for minor infractions in the state, give a citation. Then you have a greater than 30 day record in the state, impound the car until taxes paid. Really really easy to implement.
     
  15. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    75,396
    Texas!
    I understand the pain. My daughter, SIL, and new grandbaby live in California. She wants me to move there. I just tell her I don't make enough money to live in California. I can't afford to live there. In tax policy, this is called voting with your feet. This is why Florida is booming. If a state adopts a stupid tax policies, my advice is to move.
     
  16. steved033

    steved033 F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Apr 12, 2017
    7,676
    Atlanta, GA
    Full Name:
    Steve D.
    For the average joe, what bennett law firm must charge for all of that probably exceeds the tax I was going to pay anyway...

    sjd
     
  17. Prancing 12

    Prancing 12 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    May 11, 2004
    2,649
    The long way home
    That's a simple matter of cost / benefit.

    If your state is low tax and you're dealing on a modest car, then no, the LLC won't make sense.

    If you're in a high-tax state, and you're looking at a high value car, the cost of the LLC can be a rounding error on the tax bill.

    Then you have to do a risk analysis based on your state's view of the LLCs...
     
    Texas Forever and JCR like this.
  18. RonH

    RonH Formula 3

    May 29, 2016
    1,061
    Newport Coast, California
    Full Name:
    Ron H
    Arizonaitalian, that is a great discussion of the subject and you are exactly right --- aside from the issue of ethics, you need to evaluate the risk.

    The only thing I would add, in terms of evaluating the risk, you also need to evaluate the quality of the advice you are receiving and apply your own common sense.

    Specifically, as a non MT resident it may not be safe to rely on the views of this particular MT law firm on non MT legal matters. Frankly, I was shocked that on their website they appear to state they are going to advise non MT residents on the laws of their home states. What you have here is a small 3 man MT law firm who are only licensed to practice law in MT purporting to advise on the laws of potentially all other states. That would amount to the unauthorized practice of law outside of MT and would in fact be a crime in many, if not all, other states. Of course their motivation is clear, as a small law firm it would be quite lucrative for them to be selling LLCs to the unwary and to be known as the “expert” on the tax avoidance scam.

    Certainly, if you look at what EastMemphis is saying, they appear to have advised him on TN law. Per 23-3-103 of the Tennessee Code, the unauthorized practice of TN law is a crime. So here you potentially have a MT law firm committing a crime in advising a TN resident on TN law. They obviously are not the sharpest tools in the shed since they appear on their website to be actually admitting to the unauthorized practice of law in various states and here they also seem to be dead wrong in saying that the scheme is legal based on the clear language of the TN statute that vrsurgeon cited. If I was EastMemphis that would certainly give me some sleepless nights.

    In a nutshell, the Montana registration scheme is a “tax avoidance” scheme, which is not a crime unless it gets to be “tax evasion”. Obviously no state government that is having its tax system “avoided” is going to be happy about that and they are going to try to take the position that it is “tax evasion”. So in terms of “risk” evaluation, I don’t think relying on the advice of a small MT law firm that is motivated to sell LLCs and which purports to give non MT legal advice in violation of non MT laws (and certainly appears to get it wrong at least in the case of TN law) would give me a lot of comfort. Although most of us think lawyers are crooks, it would not give me much satisfaction to have my lawyer next to me in an adjoining jail cell because he committed a crime in giving me the incorrect legal advice which induced me to commit a crime.

    So in evaluating risk related to a dubious tax avoidance scheme, you should not blindly rely on so called experts -- you need to apply a little common sense.
     
    Saabfreak, vrsurgeon, AD211 and 3 others like this.
  19. Nospinzone

    Nospinzone F1 Veteran

    Jul 1, 2013
    7,348
    Weston, MA
    Full Name:
    Paul
    The other factor is I know at least one State, like the IRS, offers a bounty on turning in tax cheats.
     
    Texas Forever likes this.
  20. Clyde Romero

    Clyde Romero Formula Junior

    Sep 6, 2019
    691
    Atlanta Georgia
    Full Name:
    Clarence Romero
    There you go again getting involved with the colonies
    Didn’t you learn something after we won our freedom from you Limeys !
    Cheers Mate
    Flew many sortie out of RAF Alconbury and fought side by side with Sqdn 2,15,16 out of RAF Laarbruch
     
  21. daytona355

    daytona355 F1 World Champ
    BANNED

    Mar 25, 2009
    12,655
    London
    Full Name:
    Sid Korshak
    I couldn’t care less, I love the US, couldn’t give a damn about the UK, but when you start insulting people with no knowledge of them at all, it reflects on how people see you, not how they see Ross. All the ******** fluff about colonies I’m sure is an effort to detract from my opinion that you overstepped the mark. If it was a joke, it was in poor taste, if it was a serious comment, then I wonder if Ross might be inclined to seek legal counsel
     
  22. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 1, 2013
    15,983
    Menlo Park, CA
    Full Name:
    Paul Chua
    We are flirting with P&R here, in which we not only have a dedicated forum but where encourage debates. My friends, let's get back to the discussion on the aspects of Montana registration. Keep personal attacks (tax dodges, Royalist, ABBA fan) out of it.

    Okay, you can make fun of my ABBA appreciation.
     
    Texas Forever and Clyde Romero like this.
  23. Clyde Romero

    Clyde Romero Formula Junior

    Sep 6, 2019
    691
    Atlanta Georgia
    Full Name:
    Clarence Romero
    Thanks Boss
    Will do

    What’s P&R?
     
    paulchua likes this.
  24. RonH

    RonH Formula 3

    May 29, 2016
    1,061
    Newport Coast, California
    Full Name:
    Ron H
    What’s ABBA? ;)
     
    paulchua and arizonaitalian like this.
  25. BOKE

    BOKE Beaks' Gun Rabbi
    Rossa Subscribed

    Jul 13, 2009
    33,965
    600 East Fremont Street
    Full Name:
    Lucky
    Upgrades

    Politics & Religion (not for the faint of heart) needs you, Clyde!!!
     

Share This Page