What? No forum about the Houston Astros?

I agree 100%, as long as he never bet on his team to lose, which I seriously doubt that he ever would.

 

From Rule 21, which I believe is still printed in every clubhouse...

(2) Any player, umpire, or Club or League official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform, shall be declared permanently ineligible.

Seems straightforward to me...T

 

My only 'baseball memory' was when I was 5-6-7 my dad took me to Candlestick Park,
pointed out Willie Mays, but at that age I didn't really have an interest in baseball therefore I
had no idea who he was...

I was shooting the CWS in 1983, we were sent to shoot the Texas game because 'the best pitcher in college'
was pitching for Texas - Calvin Schiraldi.
The main photog - he shot nothing but Calvin, but me? I shot the 'other guy' - Roger Clemons.
Going in I thought Roger would be a better pro prospect, and I was right...
I have met a ton of them thru the 80's, but there was no such thing as 'selfies', I thought about
having one taken with myself, Will Clark, Rafael Palmiero, Bobby Thigpen when all three were
around the batting cage, but didn't, Robin Ventura, Barry Bonds, plus from other sports a
very young Senna in 1984, Paul Newman, I've been around a ton of them, but just never had
the gumption to ask to have my pic taken with any of them. MJ, Magic, Kareem, Bo, tons of guys.

 

Yep - 'FOMO', or, 'been there/done that/got the t-shirt'....
I have over 75 t-shirts from events that have never been worn and are wrapped in plastic...

 

Nope, Tom's correct on this one.

Picture this, I'm Alex Cora and I have a $50,000 bet on my team in its game with the Yankees. I set up all my electronic equipment to steal all their signs. Additionally I put some pitchers in the game who really should be saved for tomorrow's game, but I HAVE to win this one because I have big money on it.

Now picture this, in spite of my cheating I lose the game, and then $50,000 on the next game, and then I double up and lose that game. I'm now $200,000 plus vig in the hole to my bookie. So now I'm really desperate and decide it might be easier to intentionally throw a game.

It doesn't matter whether you bet on your team to win or lose, if you are a principal in the game, you should not be betting on it.

 

If it is true that Rose did not start betting on baseball until his managerial days - after his playing days were over - I think he should still be eligible for the Hall because he would only be admitted for his skill as a player; he certainly wouldn't make the Hall for his success, or lack of it, as a manager. In other words, separate Rose the ballplayer and Rose the manager and address his record, good and bad, at both before changing his status.

Of course, that's a big if, and I don't know if there is any credible evidence either way. And wasn't he a player/manager for a while?

 

And now, suddenly, three teams that thought they were set for the year are looking for new managers, the Astros, the Mets and the Red Sox!

Any thoughts on how this will affect each team's performance in 2020? I saw that Springer re-signed with Houston in spite of their issue.

 

It had vastly improved my outlook on the Mets 2020 season. As their biggest fan, I can't help but think that there will be a knock on effect, propelling the Mets to a WS victory. Preferably without having to resort to cheating. [emoji6]
T

 

It has been a long while since I read the Dodd report. I do not recall if he started gambling on baseball as a player.

I read an interesting article a few years ago. Basically, the gist was that they felt if Rose came clean when the first surfaced, said his mea culpas often and sincerely, he'd be back in the game. I'm guessing that eventually with the passing of time, eventually he will be enshrined in some way. My personal opinion is that he broke the #1 rule that everyone knows not to break, and he should be banned forever...T

 

Edit - Dowd report...T

 

Tom, my friend. We just see this differently. There are a a great number of guys (The Ty Cobbs of the world spring to mind) would not stand up to the kind of scrutiny Rose was under....on and off the field.

 

Agreed and agreed, Keith.
T

 

Alex Karras was just selected for the Pro Football Hall of Fame, 50 years after his playing career ended. Maybe the fact that he was suspended a year for gambling was a reason for the long delay?

 

My feeling is he got caught doing it, but to think he is the only person to
have done it or is doing is is folly.

 

Definitely. I think he arrogantly thought he'd never get caught, smartest guy in the room syndrome...T

 

We had a glimpse of what the MLB players thought during that All Star game (in Cincy?) many years ago. That pip squeak and annoying little Jimmy TV guy jumped on Pete with the betting stuff when it was just an on-air moment to recognize his tremendous career of on-field performance. All of the All star players refused to talk to the network for the duration on account of how Pete was treated. To this day, when that Jimmy guy comes on TV I immediately change the channel. Screw him.

 

IMO, the difference between "fair" cheating and unfair cheating is that all forms of cheating accepted as fair are equally available to both teams, and there are generally well known and effective countermeasures that are likewise equally available. Those are "gamesmanship" and if anything add to the intrigue and competition.

The forms of cheating discussed in this thread require access to and control of the stadium, and are therefore only available to the home team. I don't think it's the use of technology, as such, that makes the distinction.

Just my 2 cents.

 

Thanks, JJ, I think that is a great thumbnail re cheating and the difference. For me, team sports are deeply embedded in "combat" where you want to not only out-think your opponent, but to do so inside their thought-to-action cycle so you get there first with the most impact. In actual combat, this is usually referenced to John Boyd's OODA loop, but it originates with the first tactical planning manual by Sun Tzu. In baseball, it usually means decisions to take a base or hold, to bunt rather than swing away, and to hitch & drag your hands, and then turn to hit it a different direction. Even the stealing of signs from a sloppy catcher or manager who is calling them in requires near-instant interpretation and use, or the opportunity is lost. Using tech for replay, or for balls and strikes, is, to me, within the bounds of fair play and eliminate most of the human error. Using the same tech to cheat in real time is far different.

 

Here's a question... Suppose instead of visual signals relayed by a coach, players were given instructions from the dugout by text or vibration on a smart watch. Would this be cheating?

How about between pitcher and catcher?

I would argue that it is not cheating, as the exact same tech is very inexpensive and available to both teams with no advantage to either so the capability is equal. To me, this is an obvious and natural evolution of obscuring visual signals, as all teams do right now. It may not add to the competition, the romance, or the sport, but that's not the same thing as cheating.

 

Football at the pro level uses a similar system for the QB (and I think the defensive linebacker who directs the team). The pitcher/catcher dialog or sensor could work without too much work to create a useful system. Small sensors could be used, and the third base coach could also have a receiver to relay signs through the coach to batters and base runners.

There's always the possibility someone could be listening in (e.g., the opposing team), but it would be a clean use of tech as long as both teams can use it. In the NFL, if the system goes down for one team, the other team also has to disconnect, keeping the tech level for both.

 

I understand Houston is changing its name from Astros to A$$HOLES. Have a nice day.

 

The sauce. Phil hit it.

Using technology to bypass the profanity filter... I believe that's a no-no.

 

******* is a medical term. It should not be forbidden.

 

As a Yankee fan since 1950, l feel cheated by the Astros.

 

As a Colts fan through the 2000s, I feel the same about the Patriots. Life goes on. I promise.