Help! F355 ABS Gremlins (one for the electrical gurus) | FerrariChat

Help! F355 ABS Gremlins (one for the electrical gurus)

Discussion in '348/355' started by galactica1971, May 3, 2020.

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  1. galactica1971

    galactica1971 Rookie

    May 3, 2020
    45
    Hi Fellas.

    I'm trying to figure out the source of an electrical gremlin in my F355's ABS system, so I did a search online and have found this forum. I'm hoping there's a guru (electrical) who might be able to help me out.

    What I'm seeing is the ABS pump failing to prime, along with the associated dash lights for ABS and (importantly) the brake warning light. This is not only causing the ABS to fail, but also a loss of all power assistance to the brakes (Scary).

    After much searching, the issue came down to a failure of a diode in the 2 diode box located adjacent to the ABS ECU. Once the diode was replaced, all came good.. For a while.. Then the diode blew again.

    I'm fairly sure it's the diode on the right side of the diagram as this is the one that feeds into the ABS priming system, and the other one (dash lights) are not impacted.

    Knowing diodes allow the flow of current in one direction only, and also knowing that an open circuit is usually caused by over current (not over voltage), then I'm assuming that too much current is flowing through the diode.

    I've been studying the electrical diagrams for hours and for the life of me I cannot understand them. One side of the diode appears to be earthed, but then the other gets connected into a splice that appears hot. It makes sense that the purpose of the diode is to prevent power from going back to earth, but what is that earth even required for?

    I'll attach the diagram below, but basically the 2 diode box is highlighted with the circle. The diode I believe is failing is the one with the arrow.

    I might be on a wild goose chase and assuming it's a fault with the electrical system. The only other 2 things I can throw in the mix is that I am using a CTEK MX5.0 as a battery tender, and I also always turn off the isolation switch every time I'm done driving the car. I've driven the car half a dozen times since I fixed it last time, and it's just popped again.

    Have any of you chaps seen this before, and even if you haven't can you determine what might be going on by the electrical diagram?

    Thanks all.
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  2. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    The function of the diode you marked is not just simple "one way valve" but it is acting as a "flyback" diode blocking the high reverse voltage spikes (~300 V) coming from the pump motor windings every time it is disconnected by its relay. No fault in the ABS system can blow this diode.

    CTEK MX5.0, in addition to being a charger, also has a battery desulfation function - it sends very high voltage (~30,000 V) pulses to the battery. Although unlikely, but these pulses can blow the diode if you switch the ignition key to ACC (first position) while the charger is connected to the battery and the battery isolation switch is on. Are you absolutely sure that your battery was always isolated while the CTEK was connected to it?
     
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  3. galactica1971

    galactica1971 Rookie

    May 3, 2020
    45
    Many thanks for the reply, I really appreciate it.

    No I'm no sure at all, and it's high up my list of suspicions, hence the reason I mentioned it.

    I would have thought however that there would be gazillions of posts on this if it were the cause, as the CTEK is a very popular charger.

    You might be on the money though.
     
  4. galactica1971

    galactica1971 Rookie

    May 3, 2020
    45
    Perhaps this is the reason some people recommend the MX3.6 instead of the MX5.0.. I looked up the spec of that diode, and it states its forward limit is 3A.

    Maybe some back current from the charger is blowing it. It's certainly a plausible lead!

    If true I would have thought this would have been all over the forums by now? Whenever I just start up by cars/bikes to warm up I always leave the tenders connected - but what you're suggesting does make some sense.

    Surely this type of reverse power would cause havoc on many car's electrical systems? Ignition on with tenders connected surely can't be something people never do....

    Really appreciate the feedback.
     
  5. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Just in case that diagram is too small to read...

    Latest F355 (2.7) Fig4_Teves_ABS_System

    Looks like Miro has beaten me to it. Those diodes are normally reverse biased, so current shouldn't flow at all, but as Miro says, the diode is for protecting the circuits from reverse voltage spikes as the pump cycles on and off. Looking at the datasheet for that BY252 diode, it's capable of withstanding 400 volts reverse bias.
     
  6. galactica1971

    galactica1971 Rookie

    May 3, 2020
    45
    I don't believe it's the volts that's the issue, its the current. The diode is blowing with an open circuit (always off). From my understanding this is what happens to diodes when they are overfed current. Overfed voltage usually has them burning closed (always on).

    I have read that circuit again and again and I just don't get it. On one side it's feeding earth into the splice, yet the pump relay also feeds hot (30a) into the same splice (#30054)

    That power cannot go back to earth through that diode, which I guess is the point of it.

    I still don't understand what that earth feed (via the diode) is for? I must admit I'm not a qualified auto electrician so I'm having a hard time understanding how a circuit can be so bipolar...

    Sorry chaps I'm more of a mechanical guy :)
     
  7. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    When installing a diode for "flyback" protection (relays, motors), I prefer to use diodes with 1000 volts maximum reverse voltage like 1N4007 (for relays) or 1N5408 (for motors).
     
  8. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    The diode is permanently connected between the pump motor positive terminal and earth. The orientation of the diode is such that, when +12V is brought to the positive terminal of the motor, no current will flow through the diode. At the moment of disconnection of the power from the motor positive terminal (the relay switches it off), there will be a brief pulse of around 300V coming from the motor windings (induction) in reverse polarity to the polarity of the earlier applied +12V. The said reverse current will be shorted by the diode to prevent it from damaging any electronics connected to the motor's positive terminal (Pin 32 of the ABS ECU in this case). The reverse flyback spike, although it can be ~300V, is of rather low current so the diode can easily handle it.
     
  9. galactica1971

    galactica1971 Rookie

    May 3, 2020
    45
    Right, OK I can see that.. So if this diode blows then the ECU can detect this (no earth detected on ACC power up on pin 32) so it just disables the entire system?

    It does potentially point to the charger then I suppose. Might be blowing the circuit when I connect it up without first isolating the battery?

    Also might explain why MX5.0's have this problem and MX3.6's supposedly don't. They don't provide enough current to blow the diode? To be clear, the diode is blowing so the circuit is permanently cut. From what I understand, this generally means high current - not voltage. It's not the 30,000 volts that is the issue - it's the 30,000 volts @ 5amps.

    If it were just the 30,000 amps this would cause the diode to blow permanently closed (ie the circuit would still pass current).
     
  10. galactica1971

    galactica1971 Rookie

    May 3, 2020
    45
    Oh and btw, this fault showed up immediately during ACC on, not suddenly when driving, and the pump never activated during ACC on. So that also lends credibility to it being the charger I guess?

    It's not as if the pump charged up and then blew the diode when it turned off. It never turned on to begin with.

    So strange this wouldn't be all over the forums.

    If the only source of current through that diode is from earth/to positive on the relay/pump and the ECU, then it really only can be the pump providing a lot of back current, a short in the ECU or an issue with the charger - right?

    Again thanks very much. I've obviously found the right place to ask my questions.
     
  11. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    Looking at the diode only, it does not seem possible for the ABS ECU to detect earth through the diode as it is in reverse to the path ECU Pin 32 to earth. But then, the diode has a minute reverse leakage of 20 micro amp so this could be sufficient. However, Pin 32 is also connected to the motor's positive terminal and, when the motor is off, it provides almost no-resistance path for the Pin 32 to earth so the presence of the diode is irrelevant. When the pump motor is switched on, there is +12V on the motor's positive terminal and on Pin 32 of the ECU. Again, the presence of the diode is irrelevant as far as the ECU is concerned. The only time when the diode has a function is at the moment of the motor switch-off.

    The diode (if you have BY252), can handle up to 400V when blocking the motor's flyback spike and, even though it is a 3A diode, it can handle up to 100A of very brief forward surge (spike) current. So, it is quite unlikely that the diode is damaged by the motor's flyback spike which I don't think is more than 300V, probably around 200V.

    The approx. 30,000 volts from the CTEK, if it reaches the diode, will be acting on the diode in its reverse polarity so no current should flow. However, as the maximum reverse voltage that the diode can handle is 400 volts. If higher voltage than this is applied to the diode in reverse, even a very small current will damage the diode, i.e. in this case it is the voltage that breaks down the diode's P-N element, not really the current. When this happens, it will probably first short the diode so it will become a conductor in reverse as well. When then the pump motor is switched on, the high current available in this case will just instantly blow the (no longer) diode open.
     
  12. galactica1971

    galactica1971 Rookie

    May 3, 2020
    45
    Thanks so much for the detailed reply.

    I'm working on the assumption it's the diode on the right that was blown. What would be the cause/effect of a blown diode on the left side? (Yellow/Pink wire). I'm having issues understanding how that works as well.

    Pin 27 on the ECU is negative 12v signalling ABS fault. I'm having an issue understanding why a negative terminal would be connected (via the instrument panel) to the positive output of the main relay for the ABS via a diode that's blocking the positive signal?

    As always, thanks.
     
  13. galactica1971

    galactica1971 Rookie

    May 3, 2020
    45
    And finally, in this circuit, how would blowing either of the diodes prevent the ABS pump from priming, If it's only providing a safety?

    Maybe it's actually a blown diode on the left side that's preventing the ECU knowing all is well, and hence it's not priming the pump.....
     
  14. galactica1971

    galactica1971 Rookie

    May 3, 2020
    45
    I've searched high and low and I can't see anywhere online that mentions CTEK's run with such high voltages... Any sources please?
     
  15. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    Have you always had this problem, or did something happen to the car before the problem showed up? Like someone was in that area of the car to install after market electronics, or some other unrelated repairs?
     
  16. galactica1971

    galactica1971 Rookie

    May 3, 2020
    45
    The prior owner had issues with its ABS for some time (ABS Light intermittently on), however nothing that would cause both the ABS and the Brake lights to both come on.

    It has never had issues with not being able to prime the pump until recently. This is when I had a mechanic look at it, and he noticed the blown diodes. Once replaced it was fine, for a month.....

    As it sits right now, everything works fine when the diode is replaced - then after a while it just blows again - and when it does it takes out the power brakes. I'm trying to figure out what the "after a while" means. Is it the CTEK or is something else happening (if so, what?) that's blowing out the diode.

    Very frustrating (and dangerous).

    Many thanks.
     
  17. galactica1971

    galactica1971 Rookie

    May 3, 2020
    45
    The CTEK does possibly make some sense as it's the only thing I've introduced, but I'm trying to understand how it could possibly do this - and why the forums aren't flooded with similar examples of other CTEK's doing the same.

    As far and wide as I could hunt, I cannot reconcile -

    a) Ctek's introducing more volts into the system than these diodes can handle
    b) Why charging current would even go over this circuit, even if the ctek is connected and the ACC circuit is on. The CTEK is connected directly to the battery posts.

    It just doesn't make any sense why they would burn out, unless something is drawing big power down those diodes or massive voltage is being pushed back through them.
     
  18. galactica1971

    galactica1971 Rookie

    May 3, 2020
    45
    I've done my reading on the CTEK's. It's not 30,000 volts it's 30,000 hz (Pulse). So I can't see how the CTEK could do this.....?

    Thx.
     
  19. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    This is what I think is going on.

    Sometime in the past, someone has done something to the wirings of the ABS relay and fuses block at the right hand side of the car. This is because it is often in the way of getting to something else like a shock absorber or other electronic modules in that busy area. They have moved the module around, disconnected it, and then reconnected to the wrong relay. Don't go down the CTEK path yet until you rule out everything else.

    The diodes are safety devices and you should be able to remove those diodes without affecting the functioning of the ABS pump for a while (as a troubleshooting thing). That fact that it is blowing and the pump no longer working means they are in the wrong place of the circuit.

    The symptom you are describing is that of an old ABS pump that is slowly going bad and now has gone totally bad by drawing way too much current.

    The suggested solution is for you to use the color wiring diagram to make sure that all wires are going to correct relays. Thank you Ian.
    Then confirm that the ABS pump is indeed bad and replace it. There is a thread on here about how to buy and mount a Jaguar pump in the 355. Get on that bandwagon before the Jaguar pump people jack up their prices too compensate for the Ferrari use.

    On a side note, the same pump on my 328 has continued to function just fine, while many people with 355 have reported their pumps going bad. I don't have an explanation.
     
  20. galactica1971

    galactica1971 Rookie

    May 3, 2020
    45
    Thanks. If the pump was drawing too much current, wouldn't the fuse blow? It works 100% when the diode is replaced... For a while anyway!

    Those diodes are only rated for 3a (nowhere near the draw of the pump, even if the pump is new), so as you say - something else may have changed.

    So frustrating.
     
  21. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    #21 yelcab, May 4, 2020
    Last edited: May 4, 2020
    But that is just it, the diodes are not supposed to be in line with the power supplying the pump. Something is messed up with the wiring. I have seen a lot of crap with the old Ferrari wiring. Here is an example:

    1. Someone on a F355 messed up the ABS wirings in previous work, either by installing big amp or something else in that vicinity
    2. They disconnected the relays from their holders, and plugged them back in the wrong places relative to the wiring, thereby getting two relay wiring mixed up
    3. Doubled down on the problem by replacing the two diode box with a regular relay because the diode box looks like relay
    4. Causing the ABS pump to not work properly, so they wired the pump on permanently, triple down on the error
    5. That pump died a year later because it is now on 100% as opposed to being on 5% of the time.

    It took a while to undo all that mess. And it is the reason I said that when the circuit is properly wired, removing those diodes does not stop it from working for some time.
     
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  22. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    Good points. It should be noted that the Black and Yellow relays are special and must be inserted in the right sockets. This is how they are arranged on a 348 (the one with a white dot is the diode box).

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  23. Qavion

    Qavion F1 World Champ
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    Interesting. The datasheet for that diode says the ability of the diode to "rectify" depends on the frequency of the voltage change. Whether the diode breaks down faster because of this, I don't know.
     
  24. galactica1971

    galactica1971 Rookie

    May 3, 2020
    45
    datasheet also mentions testing at 1mhz, so...
     
  25. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    I checked and found out that desulfators inject pulses of some 50-60 volts which have a frequency of about 30,000 Hz so I was wrong when I earlier said "30,000 volts". Therefore, we can rule out the CTEK as the 50-60 volt pulses, whatever frequancy, cannot damage the diodes.

    The diode functions are:

    Left Diode - the Brake Warning light and Pin 27 of the ECU are connected to the anode (triangle) of the diode; the cathode of the diode is connected to the main (green) relay contact to which Pins 3 & 20 of the ECU are also connected. When the main relay is "off", the Brake Warning light and Pin 27 are grounded via the diode (the warning light comes on), and Pins 3 & 20 are grounded directly, through the relay contacts. When the main relay is "on", Pins 3 & 20 get +12V but Pin 27 and the warning light do not get +12V as they are isolated by the diode. The unaffected by the +12V link between Pin 27 and the warning light remains so that Pin 27 can light-up the warning light if there is a fault somewhere detected by the ECU while the engine is running. This diode can only be damaged by excessive current flow through it (when the main relay is off) from Pin 27 of the ECU to the ground due to some damage of the ECU circuitry.

    Right Diode - connected to the pump motor; this diode can only be damaged by excessive flyback voltage from the motor but this is unlikely as the diode is designed to easily handle the flyback; if there is a short (or partial short) in the motor windings, the flyback voltage will only be smaller so no adverse effect on the diode. A serious motor overload, due to higher current flow through it, may result in higher flyback voltage on switch-off but this should not be such to cause diode damage, unless the flyback exceeds 400 volts.

    "galactica", are you sure one of the diodes was blown? They are not easy to test with a digital multimeter. I always use an analogue multimeter when testing diodes as it clearly shows whether the diode conducts in one direction and not in the other or whether it is open or shorted circuit. If one of the diodes does blow, determine which one exactly by looking at the colours of the wires to which it connects and checking on the diagram. If you can confirm that the pump motor flyback diode definitely blows, then I would check whether the motor draws excessive current due to partial seizing of the pump.

    While looking at the diagrams, I noticed that there is a unit called "Electronics for ABS system cut-off" (No. 10009). If faulty, this unit could disable the ABS pump motor as the pump relay operation depends on it (perhaps Ian can provide more info on this unit).
     

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