Is F1 falling apart?

IndyCar uses E85 and it isn't a problem. F1 without refueling has been pretty boring just like when they raced and weren't allowed tire changing. Refueling regardless needs to come back as it will make the cars look better. Their ridiculous bus-long wheelbases are because of the self-imposed refueling ban.

If F1 really wants to push technology forward then they need to start looking at new fuels as it's otherwise going to immediately switch to electric and they will be out of business with no one caring anymore. The cities and countries will start banning their events at some point. California has already banned 2 stroke bikes.

I still don't see the reasons against ethanol here...are you guys in the oil industry or something? The cars can make more power with higher boost/compression and run cooler...unbelievable someone would be against this.

 

Personally, I don't think refuelling adds anything to racing. I prefer the driver to make the difference on the track, rather than the team strategists and the pit crew.

Hybrid is a step between ICE and fuel electric, so we are right in the middle of that evolution.

Ethanol is not the perfect racing fuel; it's calorific efficiency is lower than gasoline, hence higher fuel consumption. It's also more dangerous to handle.
I am not sure it makes commercial sense to produce ethanol if oil is available.
I used methanol on a racing bike, and I know the drawbacks of using an alcohol-based fuel.

 

Are you trolling or deliberately obtuse?

 

Absolutely! I loathe the long wheel base cars as well....

 

There is merit to both sides. I liked refueling, I liked that a driver in a slower car could get the strategy to work for him by basically running the car much harder (i.e. soft tyres constantly and higher engine modes), and having to do overtaking to make the strategy work. But on the otherside, nerds with laptops would make the difference at times.

The picture we have of the refueling races today is not so good because the cars driven then weren't the best for overtaking. Today tyre strategy has simply replaced fuel strategy so not much has changed, really. Might as well have both.

 

No, simply pointing out the contraditions in your argument.

 

So your fix for us NA engine fans is a series with 3 formula 1 cars, with a spread of 10 years between them, all gentleman drivers.

Deliberately obtuse it is.

 

Personally, I don't like pit stops at all. I remember the era before pit stops, refuelling and tyre changes.
Gordon Murray saw a loophole in the rules and introduced refuelling; obviously Bernie being Brabham boss made F1 adpot them.
Tyre changes came with the slicks, and Bernie again saw that as a way to spice the show.
For me, the risk for a driver to see his effort negated by a mistake from his crew is very unfair, just like being overtaken during a pit stop.
I would accept pit stop if they were neutralised; cars having to stay a minimum of 20 or 30 seconds before restarting.
That works well in some series, and the teams would think twice before calling for a stop !!
I hate the strategy around pit stop, yellow flags, etc ...

 

Only kidding !

 

Apart from the lower calorific density, and consequently higher volume needed, ethanol is wonderful. It's clean, not toxic, safe, allows for higher compression ratios than gasoline, etc.

Refuelling definetly makes the cars faster, but I think about the mechanics... We can't deny it's dangerous.

William, you are completely wrong! (sorry for the "!") I also used both ethanol and methanol in racing.

First of all, ethanol, methanol, butanol, etc., are all alcohols, which is a family of chemical organic compounds. They are not "alcohol-based", they are alcohol themselves.

Second, methanol and ethanol are very different when it comes to dangerousness. Methanol is dangerous because it's highly toxic, it's flame is invisible, and it's corrosive properties are high. Ethanol is completely the opposite, you can handle it with bare hands and if it's filtered and purified you can even drink it!

I had fuel spilled in my racing suit a few times (I raced on go-karts):
1 - Ethanol had no effect other than that nice cold sensation.
2 - One time my friend & mechanic spilled a bit of methanol on me (!) just before the race (!!) but I couldn't say a sheet because I was out of the regulations (!!!). I poured a bottle of water and luckly had no problem.
3 - One time I was in the middle of a race when the inner part of my legs started to chemically burn. I tried to resist as much as I could but had to give up, stop in the pits, took my suit off and rushed to the bathroom to wash my self: I hadn't noticed that the gasoline was leaking through the tank cap!

In summary, the only problem of ethanol as a racing fuel is that you will burn more liters of it per km, but for everything else it is vastly superior to gasoline.

 

I've always felt this way. F1 courted the manufacturers for their billion$, not for the good of the sport.

+1 Vive le garagistes(and Ferrari)

Ridiculous especially at Monaco.

Or neither.

 

William, it was Bernie who came up with refueling. Gordon Murray was convinced they'd get DQ'd for it. But it was Bernie's team and what he said went so they did it and it worked. Gordon Murray has confirmed this is several magazine and podcast interviews over the years.

I can take or leave re-fuling in F1, I got into the sport before it, loved it when it first came on the scene, but grew to loath it when people began concentrating more on passing with pit and fuel strategy than they did on track. It has to be part of Indy car racing as races can vary from 2-500 miles. They don't seem to have safety issues these days with more cars doing more stops than in F1.

 

I can vouch for that. Methanol is a terrible fuel.
I used it on sprint and drag bikes because it gives more HP (of course), and helps cooling the engine. They use it in speedway, long track, etc ...
In fact, some of the methanol isn't even burnt, but spewed in the exhaust, as we found out!
You can go with very high compression ration, but the fuel consumption is phenomenal with it.
Methanol has to be flushed out of the fuel system after use, as it's very corrosive: it eats plastic and rubber!
We used braided hoses on our fuel system, and we had to change them regularly.
The rubber inside used to literally disolve ending up clogging the carburators.
Storage is also a problem; methanol don't keep well, it become "denatured" after some time; you can't keep it from one season to the next.
The next step is nitro, which is another story !!!

 

https://www.planetf1.com/news/teams-who-could-join-f1/

Spanish based F1 team!

 

Lol. Palau? Doesn't have the points necessary to enter F1. What a joke. Fantasy team. Next.

 

Ferrari have rarely pioneered new tech.
They were still building front engine cars when other maques had moved to rear. Being different from the crowd doesn't prevent their cars being highly desirable and valuable though

 

That was 60 years ago.

 

They were second with a wing. (late 1960s)
They experimented (and won championships) with the flat 12 engine. (mid 1970s)
The were very successful with a transmission with the shafts laid out tangentially. (mid 1970s)
They were the first with automatic transmissions (mostly because Barnard did not want to rout a manual shift) (early 1990s)
They optimized pit refueling with tire changing (late 1990s) (although you can call this strategy rather than tech.)

 

Right on. If you are going to comment - I think he should put $$$ to work not just the mouth. He is what many aspire to be - go give back... I met him and he does seem genuinely personable guy... but either stay in your lane - or really commit. he may be the only black driver in F-1, but talk about biting the hand that feeds you ... he does not have any problem taking money from a "White sport".... and keeping it for himself. Lewis I'd love to help set up a Driving academy for underprivliged black kids...

 

I don't know that turbo hybrid is on its way out. if anything the focus is on more performance from the smallest package possible. EV is clearly gaining but ICU's are still very relevant. and turbo systems are the way ( under current regulations ) to extract power. I'll say it over and over again. F-1 needs to open up the rules and allow more technology. No more than 2000HP, no more than 8 g's in any direction for no more than 4 sec. etc... driver must control the car's actions at all times, no telemetric inputs from outside the car. agree on tire size, front and rear and a box size package and let the designes create. Money will come flowing in the form or technology advances..... which will then flow to lower uses.

ceramics in combustion engines, nano tube CPU's etc... all that need to be developed F-1 is the best way outside of war to develop technology fast. Frankly they need to allow Tobacco sponsorship again. allow Pot sponsorship... pharma, etc... that is the restrictive part of the game.

 

1. Ferrari were first with the wing in F-1 - 1968 French Gp Jackie Ickxx had a small wing over top the engine
2. They were first with using water cooling / injection in turbo engines 1983
3. first with sponsorship on cars in 1965 - champion , shell, and goodyear. they were termed "partners" by Enzo.

 

Agreed, and I have nothing against Lewis, other than he competes against my team !

 

Yes, but the race prior (Monaco) somebody had some kind of aero device (Hill?)

 

Ethanol is made from Sugar Cane in Brazil, and its byproduct is Cachaca which is drinkable and very good for you! Hahaha
I converted an old VW during my youth in Brazil to Alcohol and its was terrible...but the car smelled wonderfull Cops could no longer use a Breathalizer bc the air had saturation of Alcohol! True story!

 

They need a bit of glamour in F1 ..Renee Gracie should do it, Red Bull should give her a test

No Super licence? who cares!