430 F430 F1 Woes - Need Advice!

I've been a member and lurker here for years, but have stumbled upon an issue with my F430 that I need some forum help with

I've searched and read quite a bit, and frankly feel more confused than where I started.

Any input or direction on the following issue would be greatly appreciated.

I am leaning towards the F1 pump being the culprit, but I also think it could be a leak, the actuator, possibly air in the lines, possibly a worn clutch disc, defective throw out bearing, bad pressure plate, or some combination of these items.. Or possibly an ediff actuator. Or, something I'm missing entirely.

Cliff Notes:
-06 F430, F1, Assembly #621xx, ~20K mi
-As far as I know, all components are original, including clutch. I do not have extensive history on this car.
-The car will shift into 1st and R when Ignition is on, and actuator test cycles through all gears with scan tool (Autel). Car will not go into any gear when running, and stays in neutral.
-F1 pump primes for ~10 seconds. Once primed, it will activate again with door opening after only maybe 5-10 seconds (and runs for a short period, 1-2 seconds).
-With the car off, I can cycle from Neutral to 1st EXACTLY TWICE, before the pump activates again.
-After shifting from 1st/Reverse to Neutral approximately 10-15 times with the car not running, the red trans light comes on along with slow down light. I believe this is the F1 pump "limp mode" to cool down, then after ~30 sec I am again able to go in and out of gear. However, no codes are shown with the scanner neither when the lights are on nor are there are stored codes after. (This is seemingly new, I wasn't able to get any lights on at first)
-It seems to me that the F1 system is losing pressure if the pump activates this often, but I don't know how to figure out where.
-There are no visible fluid leaks. F1 reservoir is full, and fluid is clean - no bubbling anything that I can see. Fluid is red, which seems correct. It does look to clean to be original, so I do suspect this was changed (not sure if was in an attempt to fix a problem before I purchased the car, or if its a sign of a well cared for car. Unfortunately, I suspect the former)

A little more backstory. I bought this car a few months ago, and did not get a lot of history on the car. It ran and drove well; however, from a dead stop, it would occasionally stall, especially when easing into the throttle. When applying a good amount of throttle from a start, it would take off quickly and drive fine. (When it did stall, the e-diff light would flash on, but no lights or codes after starting back up). From what I recall, the more I drove it, the worse the stalling issue got (both as the car warmed up each time I drove it, and the more times I drove the car, the worse it did seem to get.

At this time, I had a local indy scan the car and offer input. He is not a ferrari specialist, but has experience with them. We changed the PIS setting from 4.9 to 4.2 (or vice versa). I mistakenly did not record original values. After this, the car seemed significantly better. It would drive well, and no stalling issues from a dead stop - seemingly.

However, after roughly 20 miles of driving, the car started acting up. I think its wholly unrelated, but it is worth mentioning, I run the car through the car wash when the issues arose (not a drive through!!) It was a power wash self serve, and I did quickly spray the top of the engine, but took car not to get it too wet. The car drove fine from there in ~5 miles and 10 minutes of light stop and go traffic, then ~5 miles of lightly spirited driving.

Then, the issues started. At speed (~55mph), I experienced very light grinding when shifting. I went a bit more gently when shifting, and the grinding ceased if I took my foot fully off the gas pedal to shift. I believe once or twice it may have popped to neutral (but i've read too many threads here, and may be confusing so of the posts I've read). I think its important to note that after I heard the grinding, I didn't come to a stop at any point, and the car did shift and drive alright until I got home.

Once home, I left the car running in neutral to open the garage door. Once I got back in, I couldn't get the car in gear, and haven't been able to since. Also worth noting, when the car is running and I try to select first or reverse, I can feel the RPM's drop, and I can hear/feel the F1 system attempt to get the car into gear (it usually does the 4-5 times, then stops). When it does this, if I let off the brake pedal immediately I try to select a gear, I do feel the car very gently move under its own power in that direction.

I have a number of friends in the car business, and was able to have 3 local indy's look at the car. One was a Ferrari tech, the other 2 have experience with ferraris. And each gave different suggestions, and none seemed conclusive.

Sorry for the long post, and thanks in advance for reading. Any input is greatly appreciated!

 

Stop messing about with it and take it to a Ferrari main dealer to put on an SD2 before you do any damage. Anything in history to say if original clutch ? The f1 fluid tank needs to have about 3/4 inch in it with system charged, a joiners flexy tape is ideal to dip the level, too much and will overflow , too little and it will draw air in , if it gets empty.

 

f1 actuator most likely

http://www.gte-engineering.com/f1-actuator-rebuild.html

 

You have a number of symptoms that can point to a number of things and without some data steam points it would only be a guessing game

Most of your symptoms point to clutch not disengaging properly that can be ... a bleed , pis adjustment, TO bearing or totally worn clutch ... Does your diag tool give you clutch position , clutch wear ?

Some of symptoms point to pressure issue like an accumulator or loose screws on actuator or a ediff solenoid valve issue ..

Like mentioned above get it hooked up to a good tool and get the data .. I am also assuming there are codes that you may not be seeing with your diag tool

If you are determined to take another step on a guess ..go the inexpensive route and flush/ bleed system and replace accumulator and a ediff valve . I am not saying or recommending that you just giving you the least expensive items that sometimes cause these type issues

Before you do anything try to determine clutch wear .. if it is very high maybe the clutch is done and the root of all your problems

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I should be more clear. I don't know very well what I'm looking at with the scanner, but I consider the 3 mechanics that scanned it to be fairly knowledgeable and reputable. Put it this way - I implicitly trust them more to be honest and not trying to take advantage of me over a ferrari dealer. Even if I end up at a dealer, I want to educate myself enough on these issues so I know what is reasonable, and what is not (IE: I don't want to replace F1 pump, actuator, lines, and full clutch job to the tune of $10K+ plus, when its quite likely those aren't all issues)

That is, there is good data, I just personally don't know how to read it, but the folks that scanned the car do.

The tool all 3 used are the tool they use to work on other ferraris in their shop, and they are known locally as the indy's to go with ferraris.

Clutch wear seems good according to all.

 

If you can attach the data items from the tcu like leak rate, pis, pressures etc, pump on , pump cycle we may be able to narrow down more

Here is a sample Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login

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They can hook up to the car and tell u how much clutch you have left, worn clutch gives all sorts of problems, you need to use this as a starting point as all the rest depends on this.

 

Yes, like I said, clutch wear appears fine, per the readings.

 

it is generally a better bet to read the "closed clutch position" than the percentage. if closed clutch position is < 20, I'd think the clutch is still ok for a long time down the road.

 

Closed clutch position is mid 18 range.

 

Asmod

As I mentioned earlier .. can you show us your printout of the data values I gave a sample above so a number of us can help ..

Without the data we won't be able to give any meaning guidance

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I don't have a printout, but will try to get one (or a screenshot at least)

 

To be clear, I don't expect a 100% certain diagnosis, just looking for input on what I can rule out or chase further.

I am operating under the pretense that the F1 system is losing (or not building enough) pressure. And I am assuming this because of how often and how long it prime. My question, first and foremost, is whether this is an issue, or if the pump running every other shift is normal.

 

Every other shift is not normal .. most likely an accumulator or loose screws or possible solenoids

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that means your clutch is pretty new

 

If u think the clutch wear is good think about air in the f1 system.

 

Without any more data ..I think my post 4 covers it ..



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Steve, I feel your pain about F1 system issues. If you are in NYC, then you are extremely close to Serkan (GTE Engineering) in Orange, NJ. He is a former Ferrari technician who worked with F1 system engineers in Maranello. He now rebuilds them and he can diagnose your problem. I know this because I shipped my F430 to NJ to have him resolve my F1 system issues. He has an SD3 and he is well trained with using it. Call him.

 

I've still got to a printout, but will reach out to him in the interim. Thanks everyone for the input thus far