A lot of "jumping off the deep end" summations here.
I don't quite follow. What tune is that? That manufacturers (in this case the one that supplies the fewest teams) forces them to supply an engine if no one is willing to supply? Or do you mean something else?
Cyril quite open about the tension with RedBull lol!! https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/152564/renault-willing-to-supply-engines-after-honda-withdraws Renault has indicated that it is willing to supply engines to Red Bull Racing and AlphaTauri after Honda pulls out of Formula 1 at the end of 2021. Both teams are beginning the search for an alternative partner for 2022 after Honda announced on Friday that it will stop its F1 programme at the end of next season. Renault supplied engines to Red Bull from 2007-'18, and the two companies won four double world championships together between 2010-'14. However, the relationship ended badly between Renault Sport boss Cyril Abiteboul and RBR team principal Christian Horner. Renault may be required to supply engines regardless, as Appendix 9 of the FIA sporting regulations obliges the manufacturer with the fewest partner teams to supply a competitor that has no alternatives. From next year Mercedes will have four teams and Ferrari three, while currently Renault's only commitment is to its rebranded works Alpine outfit. Abiteboul said that the French manufacturer has not heard from Red Bull since today's announcement, but is ready to fulfil the FIA's obligation to supply should it arise. PLUS: What next for Red Bull after Honda's shock F1 exit? Image Unavailable, Please Login "I can confirm there was absolutely no conversation to this point," he told Autosport. "Being in the sport we are well aware of the regulation, and we have every intent to comply with the regulation and with our obligations. "Obviously it's a bit more detailed - we need to be requested, and we have not been requested yet, and secondly there are very specific circumstances, including timing, for this to happen. And we are still quite far from that window, which is not before the spring of next year. "We know that in F1 lots of things can happen in a very limited amount of time, and spring 2021 is still very far. All sorts of things can happen. As I say we will comply with any obligation which may arise from this circumstance." Asked if a reunion with Red Bull would be awkward given their shared history, Abiteboul said: "I think so, but we need obviously to look at the sport. And I think we are still very far away from having to possibly cross that bridge. "I can't imagine that Red Bull would not have some plan in the background. Clearly they must have been aware of this, and Helmut [Marko] and Christian are full of moves and solutions. I don't expect that we will be their Plan A!" Abiteboul added that Honda's decision to withdraw from F1 at the end of 2021 did not come as a total surprise. "We know it's always something that can happen," he said. "I knew that they had to confirm their position after 2021, and now that was probably the time to do that - and maybe the lack of confirmation was already an indication, because when I see how advanced we are already into the 2022 engine design I guess it's de facto some form of orientation."
Porsche has developed a modern Formula 1 engine -The Stuttgart firm developed it during 2017 with a view to an entry in 2021 -His entry finally did not bear fruit, although now the engine could debut in a hypercar Image Unavailable, Please Login The Red Bull team faces the challenge of finding a competitive engine for the 2022 season, when it will lose Honda's technology. And although today there are three motorists who will continue, in the last hours it has already been rumored that the Milton Keynes firm could have contacted Porsche for a possible unprecedented synergy. The truth is that Porsche does have in its portfolio a hybrid V6 Turbo engine that in principle would conform to the Formula 1 regulations. The Stuttgart brand was one of those involved in the defining meetings of the 2021 Technical Regulations, which was later delayed to 2022. And during this period he worked in a power unit to face a possible entry into the queen category. Very little is known about this engine. It is known that the order to develop it came from the leadership of the Volkswagen Group, which was created during 2017 and was finally discarded when the possibility of entering the Great Circus was parked. Even so, at the end of 2019 it emerged that Porsche was studying how to adapt it for use in a new hypercar . There is a reasonable doubt as to whether the Porsche engine includes an MGU-H, because in the first technical meetings in 2021 there was a very strong current of opinion that called for this element to be removed to reduce costs. This and the lack of active development due to the lack of competition would be the biggest obstacles to solve in this project. Even so, the Volkswagen Group has already said through its boss Herbert Diess that Formula 1 would gain interest if it finally opted for synthetic fuels . And this Friday the German journalist Ralf Bach pointed out that Red Bull had already contacted Porsche, although not for the 2022 season, but for 2026 . Meanwhile, details on Porsche's new Formula 1-powered hypercar are scant. If confirmed that the successor of the Porsche 918 bets on this route, it would become a rival of the Mercedes-AMG One , which will begin deliveries in 2021 with a propellant based on the one that gave Lewis Hamilton his third world champion title in 2015 . https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=https://soymotor.com/noticias/porsche-tiene-en-cartera-un-motor-de-formula-1-moderno-980947&prev=search&pto=aue
that article was written in 2016 and the 2021 sporting regulations are considerably different. the "new customer team" cited in the 2021 regulations is open to challenge i would suspect. As for Mercedes supplying RB, i doubt it as they are the strongest challenger to them and moreover Mercs already have met their obligation under the regulations. Having said all that, money talks in the F! world. Tony
The problem is the updates needed to keep it F1 correct. Those will not matter for hypercar installation
On Friday Red Bull Racing announced that it would be talking to Porsche about supplying power units from 2022 onwards. However, according to information from Rick Winkelman, the German brand has no serious interest in entering Formula 1. "They were a long way off, but it's not going to be," says Winkelman at Formule 1 café about a possible entry of Volkswagen/Porsche into Formula 1. Ziggo Sport's commentator suggests that Red Bull should choose between Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault by 2022.
The only (ONLY) success teh current formula has had is that they are generating as much HP as the V10 era and doing it on 66% of the gasoline (a 50% increase in mileage).
And that is very relevant to road car regulations, which means that F1 was a very good test to validate the hybrid technology and push it further. That's exactly why at least 3 car makers were in F1, and why they subscribed to the present hybrid formula.
This has been a pipe dream for a long time. I like Porsche in sportscars, but I wouldn't mind them in F1. I don't know how working with Red Bull would work though ...
Not just them or anyone really. I would love for Cosworth to come back into F1. If Renault is the only way forward, I hope they rebrand the engines similar to how Red Bull ran the Infiniti name for a bit as title sponsor (Nissan, Infiniti, and Renault are all the same).
Hum.... But the F1 pre-Brawn team was based in the UK, but the engine development is based in Japan, isn't it? The Japanese business culture is soooo different that I don't see that it would work with an European boss full gas with wings... I think the wrong thing here is the EU regulations!
And it's taken 15 years to get there...including usage of turbos (always more efficient) and 16% of the power comes from a battery. I genuinely wonder what a fully developed NA V10 can do today both in efficiency and power wise. Petroleum technology moved on a huge amount in the last few years. I think the difference would be smaller than expected.
True, but I also doubt that F1 would sit idle by if RBR can't get an engine from any supplier. I would imagine that sanity would prevail and they'll simply step in and order any of the three to supply an engine. My Mercedes comment is aimed at if the rumour of Mercedes leaving are true....if they are leaving then they don't care who has the engine, as there will be no more factory team...just a bunch of Mercedes powered cars doing all the winning. Doesn't sound like a bad deal really. Certainly they'll gget a 100% engine manufacturer win rate in a season...
To my mind, it's feasible that RBR might be able to set up a second arm's length company in Japan which would pick up the remnants of the Honda engine program as well as the IT required (and maybe a sizable number of the employees) at a very reduced value in much the same way as Ross picked up the F1 team when they closed that down. Honda probably doesn't have much value it can recover otherwise. Of course, there would need to be a lot of contractual restraints on tech transfer beyond the the firm being set up, but one would assume RBR would want to keep a pretty tight lid on info anyway. There's been talk in the past about RBR building there own engines and this might make it a (relatively) affordable proposition. They might even wind up being a supplier to other teams at some point!
I don't think it's feasible. The engine still needs a lot of investment to get up to spec. Because your only allowed a small amount of engines/parts per season, manufacturers destroy a stupid amount of engines on Dyno's every year....a hugely costly exercise. With it being unlikely to supply other teams but their own, the current spec engines are just not worth the expense of making your own. If it was the V8 or even the full development V10 era, it would be way more feasible.
BAR was Tyrrell, which obviously has been based in the UK. Suggesting that RBR should buy Honda F1 engine division is a completely different thing.
Grand Prix racing has been through periods of contacted competition, it's part of the history. But your last paragraph is the bottom line. And we've been saying this for years now. The current formula is too complicated, too expensive, and ultimately, not fan friendly. Yes F1 is about the tech but up to a point. The challenge is we live in a transitional age so F1 tried to cover all technologies available. The result was an overly complicated PU. A larger NA ICE engine coupled with an electric motor offers both a fan friendly experience and it utilizes future technology. Either way, if F1 is to exist in the future it's going to have to make some changes. -F
and your point is? i suggested they .......could buy! The problem RBR have is that very few teams have successfully competed in F! unless they have works [engine] support. In my opinion Mercedes could never achieve the dizzy heights of success as just a engine supplier unless they threw their entire weight behind one team. To supply multiple teams would necessitate then building a series of engines specific to each teams design / car. Never going to happen! Best tony
strategy 1 strategy 2:: They could charge an exorbitant amount for engines. strategy 3 strategy 4: have talks with Mercedes, so both quit if FIA forces Renault to supply RB.
No, the supplier makes the engine spec and builds only to that spec, and the customer figures out how to adapt that engine to their chassis. McLaren tried it the other way and failed miserably.