Harris and the SF90

same as the pista which was described as undrivable with the electronics off

 

Who described it that way? Odd.

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chris harris iirc, complained it was wheel spinning at 1/4 throttle

 

Good points. I think the SF90 has a pretty bright future, and from where I sit, it has been a success this far.
As far as competitive comparisons go, aren't the Lambo competitor the Sián Aventador, and not the SVJ? I would think the SVJ is more of a competitor to the 812 VS.

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I don't think it is undrivable at all. To me this is clearly his McLaren brain speaking, because that is no different. I find that if you nail the throttle in my Pista at 130 kph in ESC OFF, it will stll break the tyres loose, but above that, it's pretty much settled. On our Euro GP tracks a lot of time is spent above 100 kph, so you will need a fairly aggressive throttle input to have major traction issues in a Pista on track. On a smaller track? Absolutely, but that is the same for a 488 and even a lowly 12C.
Sometimes I don't get his views. He was overly chuffed about the TdF, but complains about cars that do better. A 720S don't have less traction problems than a Pista, but apparently that's not a problem. Go figure.
He may prefer the McLarens, but the TG board and the lap times set on the GP tracks tell a different story.
All great cars never the less, and at the end of the day, plenty fast and fun.

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I chose the Aventedor SVJ due to similar production numbers, pricing and ability for a customer to readily purchase one. Sian is in a different league altogether.

 

I think he was refering to driving it on the road as oppose to track

I also agree (and have stated on this thread earlier) that he can be inconsistent esp as the holy grail for him and others was the tdf

 

I like that about him, and yes, I cannot stand those who only do it to please. I think part of my annoyance stems from a bit of disappointment. He used to be the guy whom seemed genuinely to don't care what others thought and went upstream. But it seems to me that he is no longer unbiased and is using his reputation for being brutally honest to promote his own brand loyalty, rather than doing the unbiased reviews he used to.

Back when he did his own thing, his approach was generally this. "This could be a fun and great car, let's see what's what". Then if it did not perform he would make no bones about it.
Now depending on the manufacture and type of car, it seems to me that he takes either the first approach which often have a positive outcome, or he starts out with a "Right, I don't think this is going to be very good" and then proceeds to tear it down. He has spent the better part of a year talking about all the things he does not like about the SF90, despite having not driven it. He of all people should know that he needs seattime to know how it drives. He has lost his objectiveness and his reputation for honesty does a good job of covering it up.

I used to love his articles and videos, and I was all with him when he tore into Ferrari 8 years ago trying to uncover their ringers. I loved it when he tore into Lambo for building crap cars that did not drive well. I loved it when he openly stated that he was not so sure that the 918 would sell. I don't mind the criticism, I just think it has gone to his head a bit and thus he has lost the objectivity and honesty he used to have.

 

True. But I was thinking more along the lines of performance and tech. At the end of the day the Sian is an Aventador that still uses the same old chassis, the same old gearbox, the same engine, a tiny hybrid system, and has been fitted with a very expensive body kit.

Different league in terms of price and production numbers yes, but not a different league when you peel away that body kit.

 

What tires were on 488 Pista @ Top Gear laptime?

 

Summary starts at 7:00 mark: ".... car put's technology before the driver. ... They forgot what's really important. ... I'm not sure it's a great driver's car. I'm not sure it's a great Ferrari. "
.

 

Chris Harris tweet:

I just don’t know what to do with 1000hp. Believe me, I f***ing wish I did know what to do with it because I love horsepower, but it’s all pointless.
.

 

Like Jay Leno said
Art first car second

For me, natural balance of sideway first track time or performance second


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Yes, I understand your point. My argument would be that the only difference between CT off and ESC off is the stability control, which cuts in when you have done something stupid. It also loses the SSC - in CT off, the SSC allows a controllable amount of oversteer so you can ‘drift’ at will. If you need more than this (I.e. ESC off) you are very definitely not racing or shooting for a good lap time. I think fastest way around a track is CT off but have to confess to not using ESC off so stand to be corrected. I can’t see the logic behind it though - CT off gives you all that you need to be fast on track and only cuts in when you have done something that is very definitely going to ruin your lap time.

If there is one other use for ESC off, it is for a nominal feeling of “I’m doing this myself”. Except in a car like the SF90 you’re not. As CH remarked, the computer is still governing how the two power trains interact. Therefore, maybe it’s time to acknowledge that the electronics are simply part of the car (as 99% of Ferrari drivers, even good ones, have been doing for years now). With CT off he was able to drift the car at will and it was also able to deliver a killer lap time. If that’s the way it feels great, so be it, that’s where I’ll drive it!

 

Really? I want to hear what he really thinks, the whole nine yards. Just to wind manufacturers up for our entertainment, when people’s careers and huge effort is on the line doesn’t seem particularly friendly, in fact it would seem thoroughly disrespectful and vindictive. I don’t think he wants to do that.

 

With CT off, angle of slide is reduced and power input restriced so that one can not do any to modulate either angle or slide distance. Given specific corner, trained one can slide better than CT off.

CT off is just for the show so to speak. But now a days race cars are with traction control too so...

I am not sure CT off is faster than ESC off. It depends on who drives how.
Not meant to be disrespectful of your insight.


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If the current cars i.e F8, Pista and 488 is anything to go by, then CT OFF is not faster around the track than ESC OFF. For a really fast time. You need the ability to really power hard out of the turns. With CT OFF you cannot do this because of how the system reduces power as soon as that wheel is not straight. Yes it has an algorithm which lets you slip and slide but that is totally different than a smooth fast lap. In a Pista you need the systems off if you want full power running clean lines with maybe a hint of four wheel slip on the corner exit. Granted the systems have gotten better and better to work with you, but still. A 458 and 488 is hopeless compared to a Pista or F8 in this regard, and the Pista system do allow you to use more power on the exits. But still, for a fast lap it needs to ne off.
If the car is set up more neutral as opposed to understeer, this is actually a bit easier to do. With the stock alignment, it is generally hard to run fast mid corner or put the power down on the exit. The cars pushed tremendously and if you turn it all off and try to throttle your way through the understeer, the result is just more understeer until it finally snaps into oversteer and spits you off the track. With a less "safe" alignment you get a car that is genedally much more prone to oversteer, but it is a lot more predictable and you can use much more power on the exit as the car steers clean through the turn. Of course Ferrari cannot hand over the car like this, as most are not trained in track driving, and it leaves little room for error. But anyway I digress, I think when this system has been honed and polished, it is a system with great potential. Imagine the same kind of power a Pista has on the rear wheels, but with powerful front wheel drive to help you pull through a hard corner exit, it has true torque vectoring as well. Balanced right the ESC OFF potential is absolutely massive, so I hope this holds true. It might need a little help in the camber department to get it bang on and up to snuff, but I think we are in for a treat

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What a beast and, as they say, it's just beginning.

 

Did he say the same with the LaF, P1 and 918? Nope


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I think even with ESC OFF on a Ferrari, the e-diff is still active, as is brake force apportionment so its still adding some help- no?

Now, I am hardly Chris Harris, but for whatever its worth- I would have uttered his concluding line about the SF90 putting technology first and maybe not being a great Ferrari about the 458 10 years ago. As a matter of fact I did! I had just driven my friend’s very early delivered 458 and I said it does too much work for the driver. It’s too good and too fast. (And today no one questions if the 458 is a great car and a great Ferrari). I was still enjoying my Scud, often on the track. I didn’t realize Ferrari had moved the game on. I wanted more of the same. One of the problems of enthusiasts is we look backwards- keep giving us more of the same please. Except, it may not be possible to give us more of the same when the world is changing and the competition means people are demanding more power, more speed, more more more.

In my case, 2 years later I am behind the wheel of another friend’s 458, and he says- drive it hard.. so I decided to just drive the car with some bravado and not focus on how it was different from the Scud- I realized my initial reaction was just my being upset that I wanted the 458 to be a “Scud Plus”.

And I realized Ferrari was now bringing track sensations to you at lower speeds and also making the performance more available to more typical drivers. It’s first and foremost about fun. Fun is subjective and I think they are doing (or trying!) the same thing here. Also I had changed and driven more cars.

The SF90 is a big change. I appreciate Harris’ immediate thoughts but I think time behind the wheel by more normal drivers will deliver the real verdict.

I would have also very much enjoyed Harris comparing it to the Pista. I am convinced as the dust settles, people will see the Pista in an increasingly favorable light because it is relatively light, and incredibly powerful, but useable, and you don’t have the interaction of the front end that was bothering Harris.

However, I suspect it is that very factor that will prove fun for most drivers. They will be able to use more of the greater power, even more of the time. I am sure Ferrari could have designed a mode where all the e-power went only to the rear motor- it does this over ~128 mph. So I am left to guess they designed the front end to remain in the mix for good reasons (likely most drivers would be off in a ditch)...

Anyway, I am fascinated with SF90. The lap time is remarkable. Life isn’t all lap times, but, it does grab your imagination- and until we can drive it- I’d say thats a great start! I also don’t think they are going to disappoint.

 

He clearly has an agenda with this one. Like I mentioned elsewhere, he was complaining from day one. Yet his beloved P1 has almost the same power, but only at the rear. Yet that car was the best thing since sliced bread and star shaped ice cubes...

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Yes the e-diff is most certainly active. The e-diff has a lot more to do than safety management. It's an electrically controlled limited slip diff, turning that off would just result in huge one wheel peels.

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