Harris and the SF90

Your comment regarding the 458 is not entirely true. Many who track them feel that the ESC system is way too intrusive. The 488 is not quite as bad, but even in RACE, it is slow. In SPORT both the 458 and 488 are downright undrivable on track.
The 458 system makes it very safe, but not fast. That really needs all systems off to perform. With all systems off, it also has a lot less jerky gear shift.
I find that many who consider the 458 the best of the DCT era Ferraris are not racers or track rats. Does not mean all of course, but more often than not when I speak to a 458 owner who think a 488, F8 or Pista is a step back, he is someone who mostly does normal driving and rarely track, if ever. If this is the baseline of which the cars are judged, then there is not much to go from. Then all of it is just peachy. I don't understand how someone can say that an F430 has a great ESC system for instance. It has the single most dim witted and annoyingly intrusive ESC system ever fitted to a sports car. The 458 is much better, but still leaves a lot to be desired in this regard.
So while the systems do indeed make things seem easy, they also slow you down and subtract from the exlerience.

Genedally speaking, you have to remember that the blinders are always on. People do not criticise the 458 now, and they didn't 8 years ago. Yet back then, the car had all the same issues as it has now, and few care. Does an intrusive ESC matter? No. Do most owners acknowledge or care about the poor throttle mapping? No. Do people care about the poor brake feel? No. If one were to go head first into a big brawl, one might quietly utter the notion that nothing matters as long as that black cavalino is on the side.

My point is that we can't really use what people "don't" say as a measure for what the car is. I don't like what Harris is doing here as it all seems a bit odd and hypocritical, but at least he is one of those who in the past have dared to point out a few shortcomings. To me that will always be better than those who think "it looks great and make the right noise, so screw how it drives". That is of course dealing it out pretty heavy handed, I'm just trying to illustrate a point.

But you are right that people tend to forget or just overlook the flaws, to me that is just not a good thing.

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I would have a hard time believing anything CH says is putting someones career on the line. You are giving him and the other journos way too much credit. I could careless what he thinks it is just entertainment for me.

 

Right- but in order to have that active, the F1 TRAC has to be active, so even with everything off, some systems are still active and thus, strictly speaking, you are not completely “on your own” (though you are more on your own than the other modes)


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No, not disrespectful at all. As I said, I can’t be sure but it seems logical that if you have gone beyond the bounds of CST off (I.e. no traction control but stability control) the lap time is already toast. So I am guessing it follows that CT off cannot be slower around a lap than ESC off, even in the hands of a pro? CT off already easily allows the kind of slip at the rear that can help to turn the car. Race mode actually allows that too and sometimes they will say you can be quicker around a track in Race over CT off but there you are definitely getting traction management, albeit to a very loose level - you can still get very sideways in Race mode. CT off definitely feels quicker to me, and better.

When I did the Pilota courses the trace always showed what you were doing with the car. Whenever it showed that ESC intervened the instructors always said “bad mistake, learn to drive better!” My conclusion would be that ‘ESC on’ is still valuable on track because it protects you against a stupid mistake and in CT off mode you can still break traction as you wish. They never complained about breaking traction and going sideways, just when the ESC intervened because they knew you had done something you shouldn’t have. Their aim was always to make you faster, hence they complain at you for making dumb mistakes that they’re trying to get you to stop.

Unless CT off doesn’t fully turn the traction control off? I know SSC limits slip angle but I don’t think it uses traction control to do that. Not sure if anyone knows the exact facts around this?

 

Perhaps I could have been clearer- I am driving street cars on the street. And thus, guilty as charged, I am someone who is not really a track rat or racer. But I have some track experience and a little bit of driving skill.

My point is the 458 represented a step change in how Ferrari uses technology to enhance the driving experience. It seems to me the SF90 is another step change- so this is just my reaction to Harris’ comment that technology is being brought to the fore. Maybe its too much technology for him. I think the final proof will be when the drivers have these cars.

PS if you think the 430 systems are not optimal, you should try a 550!


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On-board

 

This lap looks great! Nothing at all wrong with the sound, Stig was working at the wheel but not overly scruffy, seemed stable under braking from very high speeds, oversteer at will but the nose was not running wide all over the place and had to lift through the follow through, even with AWD - this thing is so fast, you can see it everywhere. It may be a nice line to say it is ‘too technical’ but if I could do a lap like that, I think I would be having fun!

 

bit of an underwhelming review...fantastic car, great tech, mindblowingly fast...I like the looks personally.

But the PFI filter makes the car sound so quiet (both on the top gear review and the charles leclerc film, even the outtakes seen on instagram)....ordinarily I would say ''fit a different exhaust'' but with the amount of tech on this car and Ferrari able to void warranty if you've modified the car, that can be an incredibly costly solution for a simple problem.

Personally not convinced with many buttons now being of that weird ''touch screen'' variety. Not used them yet but to me I just don't see how they give a nice feedback. Not enough to pass on a car however, just an observation.

 

Only two videos to go by so far, but I am more impressed than I expected to be.
The lap time is monumental.
Shockingly, the car also sounded decent, dare I say better than the Pista/F8.
It looks, well, bland and like a bad 488 mod, sadly.
My prediction is >$200k over sticker in the aftermarket for the first 6mo in USA.

 

That looks really good. Would be great if customer cars were set up like this.

However I highly doubt that unfortunately. We know that Ferrari fine-tune the cars for these laps, and the lack of understeer there, is not in line with what Ferrari normally offers.
Also, I've yet to see a normal customer car delivered that was not pretty far out of whack and in need of a good allignment just to get to factory spec.

When looking at a new Ferrari, I usually find that they are shimmed the same side to side. So this tells me that each car is not put on the rack prior to leaving the factory. This means that they use a standard rather than measuring each car. As an example, my 488 had 2mm shims both left and right. Now how bad could that be? Well, that gave a camber setting of 55minutes left and a whopping 1 degree and 41 minutes right. Not only did the right side have almost a full degree more camber than the left, if you want to compensate for the crown in the road, it was in the wrong direction. Factory rear camber for a 488 is 1 degree and 20 minutes, so those numbers were just ridiculous.

This is unfortunately a normal Ferrari problem, and a perfect example of why one should start by taking the car tovanvallignment while the tyres are new.

My point is that I think the SF90 has massive potential, but to get the most from the car, there is usually a lot to be gained by simply making sure it at the very least is straight and within factory specs. After that, one can always consider adding camber or fine tune toe, but a baseline allignment is a must as a minimum if one wishes to have the car perform as advertised.

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With front wheels being powered completely independently from rears they can kill understeer as much as they like depending on the mode

 

They can kill some, but not as much as they like. There is still a ton of power and weight back there to induce understeer all the way into next week if allignment is off.

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at 5:25 Chris tells us the car he wants from Ferrari is just about the opposite of what the SF90 is.
.

 

The question is whether todays buyers agree. Harris is looking backwards as evidenced by his comment about the F8. Yet he was luke warm on the Pista? The F8 is a wonderful car, but the Pista is more engaging. He's been cranky lately which makes it difficult to know how to trust his judgement- did they catch him at a good day or bad? The world is changing. The manufactures have to build to where things are going not where they've been.

IMHO every new Ferrari should get a proper alignment at the dealer. I agree, they often feel off, and when you get it done, you discover they actually are off. Should be part of the PDI.

 

Why wasn’t he this critical when porsche did the exact same car but slower few years ago? Harris is a TWxT

Hope Ferrari don’t give him any thought and thanks God it’s not him doing the fast laps

 

Harris should have told what it feels compared to 918 or nsx. That would have been interesting than just critisizing general direction.


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Maybe it becomes more manageable once the qualifying mode runs out. They should have at least found out that lap time difference. The equivalent of built in heat soak.

 

Ha! No sooner have I pointed out the fact that they will dial in understeer for the common folk, and then it was confirmed.

Okay. Good to know that I need camber shims to be ready for install lol.

Could we for the sake of all things holy get back to a situation, where sport cars were not dialed in for the lowest common denominator, but rather aim them a bit more towards people who like to drive and actually make a bit of an effort to learn how to drive performance cars.

Where does it say that the best thing is a sports car that can be driven by even the most incompetent clot is a good thing? I know why, but stll. Do I have it all wrong, and is it a good thing that even the most ditzy starlet can cruise an F8 down Sunset Stŕip without clìmbing road sign poles and trees?

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No car makers want the reputation that can bring them to court as it happened for Porsche and the death of Paul Walker

 

Completely agree with this. I think it is better to judge Ferrari based on their response to regulators and the way the market is changing. A bit more circumspection is needed I think. People always seem to want what they can’t have, but the moment they can have it they don’t buy it. You can have a lightweight, high power, beautiful handling, manual car. It’s badged Lotus and hardly anyone buys one, and those that do hardly drive it.

It must be true that if the regs were as they were in 1990, we wouldn’t have the SF90. We wouldn’t even have the Pista. But they’re not, so we have to get over it. We’ve been on a trip recently. One of our group brought a 355 GTS along. 25 years old and it did brilliantly. But he had to work hard to keep up, the car lost power on a mountain twice (eventually found out the issue was loose screws on an air box) and those following him started to feel sick because of the fumes (most cars were open). It’s amazing how familiar our bodies have become with the lack of emissions coming out of cars now. The same with cigarette smoke, which you rarely come into contact with inside a building. When you go somewhere it’s still allowed it is far more objectionable than I remember it being. I wouldn’t have bothered moving before, but now, the faintest whiff and I want to move or leave. There are some obvious benefits to the world following an emissions free path, though I am certainly in the camp that would like a whole lot more even-handed debate and discussion about what is an important issue. Instead we get people who just want to railroad your thinking and very little reasonable debate, and certainly there seems to be not enough common sense in measures taken.

 

I have driven it ,great handling,did 650 MPH and carried 595 pax in Haj spec!

 

Of course not. But two things to remember. One, it does not have to be as aggressive as the CGT. It can still be much more neutral without being homicidal
Two, I believe that Porsche was not held responsible for the Walker incident. Fact is that those two guys crashed as a result of reckless driving. The Walker case is a bit of an "only in the US" moment I think, and it had some opportunistic, financial and media driven motives behind it. Not sure that is indicative of what is actually common. A happy medium would be to have cars with a Euro setup and cars with a US setup.

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650 mph? Did you strap a J79 on top of it?

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Lol, just the trusty old RB211