Red Bull F1

Red Bull threatens to leave F1 with both teams if engine development won't be frozen from 2022 onwards. Mercedes would agree. For Renault to consent, all engines have to be on an equal level. Ferrari won't accept engine freeze at all.



Ferrari against engine freezing

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Red Bull wants to continue with the Honda engines on its own. Hence the threat to Formula 1: Either the engines will stop developing or two teams have left. We'll reveal what the competition thinks of it.

T hat will be hot debates at the big engine summit on October 26th in Portimao. The Honda withdrawal at the end of 2021 reignited discussions about the engine regulations. Meanwhile, the opinion is slowly gaining ground that the current drive units are too complicated and too expensive. That can be fatal for Formula 1. Because there are only replacements for dropouts from within their own ranks. But if its own ranks thin out even more, sport will have a massive problem.


Red Bull took stock after Honda announced it would end its Formula 1 involvement at the end of 2021. None of the four options Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault or using the Honda heritage on your own is optimal. Not for a racing team that claims to be world champions.


At Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault you are just a paying customer who has to take what your partner delivers. The own solution with the Honda legacy costs money and only works if the engine regulations are frozen. Even if only one upgrade were allowed per year, a private initiative would reach its technical limits.

Sports director Helmut Marko has confirmed to auto motor und sport that Red Bull prefers the solutions with the Honda engine in personal responsibility. Because this is the only way to preserve a piece of independence. Red Bull also let those responsible for Formula 1 know that. The plan sounds a bit more dramatic: Either engine development will be frozen from 2022 or Red Bull will leave Formula 1 with its two teams.


The door to Maranello and Paris is open

This puts pressure on the engine discussion. Mercedes is allegedly positive about Red Bull's proposal. Renault only if there is an alignment of the engines beforehand. Ferrari blocks itself. Maranello believes Red Bull is not in dire straits. "They can knock on the door in Paris or in Maranello at any time. There they can get an engine that costs them less money than if they do it themselves."

At Ferrari, you don't see why the engine shouldn't make a difference in lap times in the future just because Red Bull imagines you have to do everything yourself. Motorsport is called motorsport because the engine should be an important part of the package.

A development stop stands or falls with the fact that the engines are in a range of a maximum of 10 hp. Otherwise nobody would be willing to freeze their engine development. Who wants to drive with a guaranteed horsepower deficit by 2025? If you want to follow the Red Bull proposal, you only have one year to align.

At the moment the difference between the best and the worst drive is between 30 and 50 hp, depending on your perspective. There is too little time to catch up. All four manufacturers will build new engines over the winter. Even if Ferrari, Honda and Renault find performance, nothing is won. Mercedes will also improve. One would then have to grant those who lag behind further stages of development. But that goes into the money. And you first have to have the necessary ideas.

New engines better as a development stop?

The next obstacles are already lurking. From 2022, 20 percent biofuel will be added, from 2023 Formula 1 wants to run 100 percent with CO2-neutral fuel. According to FIA engine boss Gilles Simon, the first step for engine engineers is the bigger one, even if it sounds like the smaller one. New cylinder heads are needed to adapt the combustion process.


Who does this for Red Bull? Maybe still Honda for 2022, but for 2023 you would be on your own two feet. And what happens if one finds a better way to adapt than the other? Does it then have to be readjusted?

For Ferrari it is out of the question that the project with the emission-free fuels will be stopped just because Red Bull wants to get his way. This development is far too important for the future of sport. It could become the green label of the premier class if one day one had to swear off the highly complex drives of the present because they are too expensive and only a few can master them.


In Portimao, at Ferrari's instigation, the question would also be asked of whether it would not be better to bring forward new regulations with simpler engines from 2026 to 2023. This time, however, under an aspect that was forgotten eight years ago when the hybrid formula was adopted. "Whatever we do, we have to keep an eye on costs."


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Time for F1 to re-boot. Let's try and get it right this time.

 

Interesting perspective that will concentrate the minds for months to come.

 

My opinion.....RedBull is making an idle threat.

They won't leave F1.....like Ferrari has made many a threats before.

IF no engine freeze, RBR will eventually be supplied by Renault.....which is the cheaper route.

 

Or maybe Mateschitz will use that excuse to bail out of F1, who knows?

But the positions of the 3 engine suppliers left is quite interesting.

Who says F1 is boring.

 

So the question is, will Ferrari be happy if Red Bull quits and they are able to keep engine development.

My guess is they would say -- yes.

I've said this before but F1 will eventually become a pseudo spec series like Indycar. There will be some kind of "world powertrain". Then all the teams have to develop their cars round it using a list of standard equipment.

That would bring in more privateers and smaller car makers like what happened with the Ford Cosworth V8 in the 60's and 70's.

In 10 years they will all be electric anyway. The writing is on the wall.

 

This was proposed by Marko last week. Its funny to see them want to build an engine based on Honda. Only if there is a freeze. Marko dreams of both cake and eating. Leave............no loss. No freeze. None. If Redbull wish to be a full F1 team and supply its own motor then do so and develop as others. Silly to ask for a freeze.

 

Where would Ferrari fit in "a pseudo spec series like Indycar"?

 

Just like Honda and Chevy are. Label slappers.

 

Big difference Honda and Chevy don't have a team in Indycar, but Ferrari has the Scuderia in F1.

 

I was referring to powertrain makers.

If you look at the period of the Cosworth DFV, there was a huge advancement in auto technology and some real innovation. Lotus introduced ground effects. Alfa even brought out a fan car.

Racing can still go on.

And what are you going to do when they go all electric anyway? Stop racing entirely? If the public doesn't want that, I can see it dying out. If the manufacturers see it as worth their investment, it will continue.

I don't like it but that's the future. Deal with it. Honda's gone and ain't coming back. If Merc starts losing look for them to be next.

 

People (rightly) say F1 racing is boring! But nobody says F1 politics is boring!

 

Right now, almost everyone but (I can't think of any), would be happy if RB took its 4 cars off the grid.
They would find ways to hem and haw about what a great loss it has been, and laugh in private at all the more points they can collect.

 

I wouldn't miss them.
The whole Red Bull set up has been arrogant and unpleasant from the start, and, as someone said, a bit of a meat grinder for many drivers. .
For years they were called "The Cans" on this forum, and their 4 titles with Vettel annoyed a lot of tifosi.
Their management has an attitude problem, and too much a sense of entitlement, so I would welcome their departure, surely.
But we are not there yet ...

 

Once again F1 moves at a ****ing snails pace, which is incredible when you think about it.

F1 needs a dictator. The inevitable fact is that (engine) manufacturers will sooner rather than later quit F1, either because of financials or political pressure and likely move to formula E.

For red bull to take over the honda program AND keep spending stupid amounts of money on it, is lunacy. Especially because quite soon, a new engine will need to be developed. THAT's why they're calling for a development freeze.

I've said it many times before and I'll say it again, F1 needs a dictator that isn't afraid of calling the bluff of the manufacturers that think they're calling the shots. F1 needs to decide whether they're an entertainment sport or a supposed testbed for manufacturers (guess which doesn't really work?).

Going to a 3.5 litre NA V10/12 that's limited either by an electronic rev cap or by use of valve springs (I believe the physical cap is 14K RPM as per @Mitch Alsup ), limit use of exotic materials and weight cap to reduce spending significantly. The biggest gains are likely to be made in the fuel department...guess who can foot that bill? Fuel companies. Make all engines run on 100% biofuel so the tree huggers are happy. If there absolutely must be a form of hybrid involved, fine, but make is a simple system like we had before. KISS.

Keep full engine replacement cost cheap, allow an engine per weekend. Limit engine test beds in season, maybe to zero. Allow the friday engine to be whatever they like for testing purposes. I'm sure some manufacturers will leave but they'll be replaced by cosworths/judd etc of this world. And they can actually make money.

Together with the more sane 2022 chassis/aero formula F1 has the potential to win back those millions of viewers they lost.

 

Since Ferrari has been in F1 from the begining, why not ask them to write the technical rules of the next formula for once ?

Take away their preferential "historical payment", but in exchange let them chose the type of engine they want, the aero, etc ...

It could be interesting to see what rules they would put forwards, and if that would give them some advantage against the other teams.

 

interesting thought but that would never be approved by other teams I suspect.

And imagine the embarrassment if they get beaten when they write the rules...

 

Well, a "dictator" don't look for approval: he imposes his rules.
In fact, since the hybrid formula is considered a Mercedes plot, it could be good for the pendulum to swing back in Ferrari's favour, perhaps?
I was coming next to the subject of embarrassement if they get beaten.

 

An independent dictator that has the interest of sport + entertainment without making it artificial would be better, IMO.

 

Ferrari again not entertaining the RedBull freeze issue at all - https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/153090/ferrari-red-bull-engine-freeze-plan-not-priority

Ferrari says sorting out plans for Formula 1's engine regulations from 2026 is a bigger priority right now than worrying about an engine freeze to help Red Bull.

With Red Bull pushing hard for F1's engines to be frozen from 2022 so it can take over the Honda project, the other manufacturers will need to support the plan for it to happen.

But while Mercedes has already indicated it would welcome the move, Ferrari's current deficit with its powerunit would make it less likely to back the idea.

The issue of future engine rules is to be discussed during a video call of the Formula 1 Commission on Monday, but Ferrari team principal Mattia Binotto does not think the freeze is the key issue.

Instead, he wants more focus put on what happens with the next generation of powerunits, and whether or not the change happens before 2026.

"It is true that the engine [freeze] matter is one of the points of a big meeting, so I'm not sure we'll discuss it really at length," said Binotto.

"But I think before starting discussing the freezing, more important is to start discussing 2026.

 

Already too magnanimous agreeing next year’s freeze knowing full well they’re PU would be so sucky

 

Albon is bye bye by years end (confirmed)

 

Max was asked for his opinion as to who should replace Albon's seat for 2021.

Max replied "Nico"

Now it's up to managment to decide.

 

I don't think an engine freeze is the right answer either. So long there is such a big gap between the power issues all it does is ensure more titles for the one with the best.

 

I would go along with that.
F1 has more or less already decided what will happen up to 2026, but what comes after is a big unknown.