355 major gas tank out

Hey All,

There was a thread going about a youtube video showing a 355 belt service done by removing the gas tank. I know not everyone loves that strategy but it was a really detailed video. I very much appreciated that someone put the time in to make that and feel like we need that thread/video here for reference.

Why is that thread gone was it deleted? That was a really useful video. I'm confused as to why that thread is no longer here?

Link below

 

let's just call it....f-chat rules regarding how far you can go before you're asked to pay to be here.

sjd

 

Well, if you make a partial living from people watching your youtube videos (lots of people do now), and you want to use this forum as a form of marketing, promotion, or advertisement for your video, then you have to pay (become a sponsor) for the eyeballs.

 

Those are the rules. Is Scott making those kind of numbers now?

sjd

 

I believe most of us like Scott and that he genuinely makes an effort to do things himself. But he does the videos to get revenue and sponsorships and to the extent that is a business....he needs to be a sponsor of Fchat if he directly wants to reach its members.

In regards to his latest video.....I think it is interesting that he finally proved the fuel tank removal approach works for a belt change. Many of us have heard of the approach but not seen it actually done. I would still do the engine out approach because there are many other things to sort out than simply doing a belt change and other than taking time and having the equipment.....it is the way Ferrari intended it to be done.

 

If you can jack the car up high enough to get the tank out and work comfortably under the car, you can drop the engine and do it right.

 

I don't agree with this method, its a short cut and there are many things which you need to do which you simply can't do with the engine in the car.
Ferrari thought about the engine out service with the Testarossa, 348, 355 etc etc.... its not a big deal to remove the engine, and whilst I have a lot of respect for Ratarossa, this method is a hack in my opinion.
The most important thing I noticed is he actually proves you cannot check the cam timing accurately.
His method for establishing TDC is wrong using the dial gauge he had there. You simply must use a degree wheel on the crank which you cant do with that cross-member in the way and not being able to see whats going on easily, otherwise you're guessing. What he showed and how he instructed to find TDC is wrong and should not be used. Sorry Scott, but that's a fact, that is not how I was taught to dial TDC when I was training to be an automotive engineer. You'll be off a number of degrees doing it like that.
You must verify the cam timing when you change these belts, the assembly marks are just that, for assembly, not for "the timing", that is done with a dial gauge. You have to do it, my inlet cams in my 348 were both about 3 degrees retarded and the exhaust cams were also off by a few degrees, obviously from belt stretch. You must to the cam timing. Do not lock everything and just slip the new belt on.

There are a number of other things I would want to do whilst the engine is out also, its easier and safer than what was going on there. Screw all that crawling around in that confined space not being able to see things properly and all this with the car on axle stands, nooooo not for me.

BUT, he said he was going to do it, and as always he did, it works and the engine runs, but do you really want the cam timing to be off, which it will be with this method?
My engine in my 348 runs so much better after dialing the cams in to within 0.5˚ smoother power delivery, more power up top......its well worth doing.

Anyway, one mans opinion, I do have to say, I was impressed he was able to get it done.

 

This is nothing new, this was proved and argued about 15 years ago, some of us knew how it was done. Regardless of some saying there was not enough room bla bla bla The nasty band waggon brigade was strong . Seems today things have mellowed some what.
These kind of threads have been foing for some time.
PS. IIRC it was a British Ferrari specialist called Verdi Ferrari that pioneered the process back then.
I have known some other specialist do this also, some do, some dont.

 

Man that music was god awlful...

Robb

 

I fortunately have a lift, all the tools I could need and a full time mechanic to save me if I get lost. Perks of my family owning a mechanic shop.

I'd like to do a full engine out service myself as I like to know exactly how my car works. That's a big part of owning classic cars for me.

With that said the detailed resources for Cam timing and belt change don't seem to be readily available. Every post out there is just a long argument about how (John Doe knows but is not telling us the procedure because people were rude once when he tried) info may be in there but it is buried in arguments and confusing.

So far Scott's video is by far the most detailed belt change info I have seen. I would absolutely love a detailed proper full engine out service video. I have searched for one but found nothing close to the detail level of Scott's gas tank out video. His process might not be perfect but it's the best video we've got.

When the time comes for me I am very tempted to pay someone knowledgeable to do the work and to document the process via video so I can share it and use it myself. Maybe we should start a group to pool money to get this properly video logged.

Please do let me know if a detailed video log of a 355 major exists already!

 

How often do you have to change the belts? [emoji39]

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I change mine every sunday

 

Roselli does it here if u want the basics :3500usd, full major is 5500...as in just the bare minimum


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Well, this is wrong for a number of reasons. If your cam were off then there are two possible reasons. 1) The car was previously timed wrong, in which case it's been off since the last belt change yet the car was driven without questioning the cam timing. 2) It was timed properly and it is off because the belts stretched.

With regard to 1, if it didn't matter for the 3 to however many years you drove the car since the previous service, sure it's good to time the cam, but it apparently wasn't an issue before the present service. I've never heard any one say there car was running poorly so they checked the cam timing. I hear anecdotal evidence that a car runs better after a major service. Never any documented before and after data. Is it the cam timing, new plugs, cleaned injectors? To many variable to claim it was cam timing. In fact, the car may seem weaker after changing the timing as different timing effects output differently through the PM range.

With respect to 2, if the cams are off due to belt stretch, then a new belt will restore correct timing to within the belt length tolerance which is around +/- 1/2 degree for 95% of new belts. And, if it's off due to belt stretch, there is little point in being so precise because even if you time the car perfectly the timing will drift and become retarded because the new belts will stretch. I haven't heard many, if any, say they checked the timing before they removed the old belt, and then again with new belts to verify the effect of belt stretch.

 

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This makes perfect sense to me. If the car runs perfect as it is why would I redo the timing.

Thanks Johnk

 

This has always made sense. But years ago one would have got attacked by the bandwagon for suggesting such a thing.

 

And I have been stating it for years with a lot of negative feedback . Those who disagree seem to feel other things change (metal parts change dimensions?) or imply that the last guy to time time the engine didn't do it right, or a belt skipped a tooth. The skipped tooth is easily check by looking at the assembly marks. If they are close the belt hasn't skipped. With so many of these guy always finding the timing off it makes me wonder more if they are doing it correctly. They state that for the level of effort required why not. I'm fine with that. But when I have asked for someone doing a belt change check timing before removing the old belt and then after installing new belts with the teeth in the same position, it seems to be too much work.

The only way this would be put to rest is if the timing is documented at each belt change before and after the belts are installed, over several changes. Of course, the lock and swap is common practice on 3x8 series cars. No one seems to have a problem.

 

I think the notion that timing belts stretch is an old school thought. Yes, I'm sure in the 70's the quality of the belts was such that they did experience some stretch over lets say 60k miles, but the belts of today are much better quality and I doubt that the average Ferrari that gets a belt change every 3-7 yrs and only racking up 5-10K miles sees any measurable belt stretch. I've changed the timing belt on a TDI volkswagen that goes 10 yrs/ 100K mile interval and the belt still looked new with zero stretch, and also on a Chevy 3.4 twin dual cam v-6 that uses 2 triangle holding plates to hold the cams in position while doing a belt change, and noticed the same thing. If the car leaves the shop with the crankshaft and all 4 camshafts in the exact same relationship to each other as when it came in, then I think it would be reasonable to say that the car will still perform exactly as it did before the service. I suppose if one were racing their car in competition then maybe 1/4 of 1 degree really matters (doubt it), but to each their own.

 

This is wrong you say?
Nice theory, but this is not always the reality, I understand your point and its all well and good, definitely good to discuss and look at things from all angles.
Cam timing shifts, it affects performance a small amount which some people may not notice, but it does happen.
I checked my cam timing before I pulled the belt off as I do when I change a cam belt on any engine, not just Ferrari's. Cam timing shifts.
Belts stretch, not a lot, but they do stretch enough to affect the cam timing by a couple of degrees, and then they break.

In response to the comment in bold. If you are doing the job properly, you will check the cam timing before pulling the belt to verify the state of where things sit with your engine before the service is done.
I did it to see if the cam timing had shifted, I often do this on engines, its good practice. Personally I like to know as much information about the engine before I carry out work so we know what may have contributed to improvements in performance along the way.

The old belt, which was a genuine belt, was stretched, I measured it against the new one, don't ask me how much, I just verified it had stretched and then tossed it. Ever noticed how easy it is to get a belt off, and how hard it is to put a new belt on?

"if the cams are off due to belt stretch, then a new belt will restore correct timing" Maybe, maybe not, sometimes its does and sometimes it doesn't, the new belt I put on restored the inlet cam timing, but not the exhaust, one was off by 3˚ and the other was off 6˚. But you wouldn't know this if you don't check the timing
There is a reason the cams are able to be timed in 3˚ steps, Ferrari don't do this for fun, these engines are not Toyota Camry engines, they are more finely engineered and tuned than that....

You have to check the cam timing when fitting a new belt if you want to be sure the engine is going to run at its full potential. Yes the engine will run perfectly fine, but maybe just not quite as well as it could, and to varying degrees.

 

Because the car may have slightly degraded performance which goes unnoticed as it happens incrementally over a few years....
The procedure is to check the cam timing when fitting a new belt.
Ferrari cams have assembly marks, not timing marks. Using them as timing marks works, and the engine will run etc etc, but the cam timing needs verification, as per the procedure.
You don't have to do it, cam timing is quite time consuming and I imagine many places don't even bother doing it.
But I have been around race engines my whole adult life, tuning, modifying etc, so I like to do things a certain way, and that's to make sure everything is spot on.

 

Out of curiosity, when you timed your cams last time did it coincide with the assembly marks?

 

Same Stickyrx killed me [emoji23]


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Agreed: there is no reason NOT to check timing before and after a belt service. While it may take some extra time, it just makes good sense. Most times you may see no variance, but KevZep is correct in minor incremental changes in any engine. Why not strive to do the very best.......this way, there is never regret.

 

Yes, they do approximately.
Marks are not the best way to get cam timing accurate as you can have more than a couple of degrees variance where the marks look like they are right, parallax error and so forth. I use the centerline method as this is what I was taught back in my engineering days. In the Ferrari manual they have a different method which measures the valve opening degrees using a 050 shim.
Either works well.