Antique Pocket Watch Identification and Restoration

I wouldn’t try winding anymore than you’ve already done until it gets cleaned up then.

 

The oils in the watch have hardened, causing the watch mechanism to become "clogged"....I would recommend a vintage watch repair shop in Pennsylvania that I've used. They are called Chronotek. Contact Michael the owner. (215) 799-1912 tell him Sal referred you. Like others have said, this will cost you more than the watch is likely worth, but it will preserve the watch for sentimental reasons.

 

From what I can see, the watch is all intact without anything obviously broken. I think it is very dirty and that is causing it to lock up. It will run reliably only by being taken apart, cleaned, oiled, and reassembled. I'd say a $350+ tab to fix.

 

What a great thread. So sorry for your loss.

 

I haven't read the whole thread admittedly. I'm a watchsmith I work on swiss watches for a portion of my living, so a few things jump out at me although I'm not very adept with pocket watches. I think you may have a.. Jaeger-LeCoultre Heritage keyless pocket watch. JL stamp and movement layout and decoration... I should probably have read the whole thread... I have to run and wanted to post now that I saw this so I didn't forget.

 

I'm not all familiar with pocket watches, but these guys might be able to provide some info, no affiliation or relations -https://www.skinnerinc.com

 

I wondered if JL might mean Jaeger LeCoultre also, but thought it less likely due to the sparse markings, use of English Fast/Slow rather than Avance/Retard, and general lower quality in fit and finish.

Here are some Jaeger LeCoultre pocket watches as examples of what they might look like.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/orologio-watch-uhr-reloj-montre-jaeger-le-coultre-tasca-pocket-argento-silver/254217006702

https://www.1stdibs.com/jewelry/watches/pocket-watches/14k-gold-full-hunter-lecoultre-co-minute-repeater-antique-pocket-watch/id-j_6966691/

https://www.etsy.com/listing/870380940/jaeger-lecoultre-pocket-watch

 

Just a thought, the picture in the first post looks to me to be JP and I got curious, maybe a JP Stevens pocket watch Atlanta?

 

I couldn’t immediately find anything in a 4-jewel variety with a cylinder escapement by them... however, they had a really interesting way of maintaining timing as the mainspring was unwound! A wheel with a groove in it that adjusted the timing lever on the hairspring as the watch was sound and unwound to make up for the loss of power at the balance! So cool!

 

You have received some solid feedback here. My only added value would be to reach out to your local NAWCC (National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors) for a recommendation on a watchmaker. There will surely be someone that has experience with your watch. Yours doesn't appear to be anything that should scare off any competent watchmaker. As a collector myself, I can tell you there is some level of joy and satisfaction owning a piece of art such as this. Best to you and your newfound sentimental art piece.

 

One more thing...if you are on FB...there is a page on there called Vintage Pocket Watches. Identification is the main theme, but many just show off their nice watches. I would throw yours up on there and get some feedback.

 

Great day yesterday driving down to Maryland to meet Walnut (Rich) and hand off my great grandfathers pocket watch for R&R. Thrilled he took on my project, he's a super nice person, very smart and passionate about watches and how they are constructed.

Ironically, there was a bit of divine intervention involved. The second hand hadn't moved more than 5 seconds since October 14 when the watch was given to me. Not sure what exactly changed yesterday but when we arrived and Rich examined it, both the second hand and minute hand were keeping time and moving. Maybe the watch was excited knowing it's getting serviced for the first time in 80 years or so....

Hard to see in the photo I'm holding below of my great grandfather, but it was taken around 1920 and in it he's wearing the watch. My grandfather is the the little boy directly in front of him.

Then me and Mrs. B dined at a place on the Susquehanna river Rich recommended, great crab cakes!

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It was great meeting you and your wife, Phil. I’m glad you were able to make the trip!

Let’s get down to business now, shall we? I didn’t have a lot of time last night to get into things but I did spend what I could looking things over. A few things popped out at me.

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1) It is actually keeping pretty good time. I can adjust the balance such that it actually runs fast! That is a great sign. However, the balance has pretty low amplitude. A slow motion video capture shows it swinging through a range of about 120 degrees. Ideally we’d want that to be at 200 or above (from what I’ve read about these types of escarpments). I think this could be signs of a worn out, or “set” mainspring. A new one would be putting more power through the gear train and improve that amplitude. Additionally, the old oils are more than likely gumming up the works and robbing power.

2) I had previously comment that it looks like one of the dial feet retaining screws is missing. It is... mostly. It has clearly broken off inside the threaded hole in the main plate so I’ll have to find a way to work that back out.

3) This watch has clearly been LOVED and taken care of. The hairspring is immaculately clean with no signs of rust. Beautiful!

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4) I am not 100% positive on this yet and i only discovered it by fluke... I believe i know why it had previously been stopped/stuck at 42 minutes past the hour but decided to start running when we met. The minute hand appears to get stuck on something, most likely a but of glue from where the crystal is bonded to the bezel, at exactly 42 after the hour. It just happened to occur when i was looking at it that I applied a bit of pressure to the crystal as a result of how it was laying on my work pad and the watch stopped. When I turned it back over, voila, 42 after the hour (how’s that for coincidence!). I tinkered a bit and if I pried up on the bezel with my fingernail it started again. Push down on the crystal, it stopped. I think your drive down just happened to shunt it the right way. This is very good to know because I’m not sure I’d have found it out if I was purposefully looking for what was wrong.

That’s all I have for today. Better pictures to follow.

 

Ooooo! Ooooo! Cool!

This is going to be like one of those car restoration threads I so enjoy following in the 308/328 section!

 

I snuck down to the lab this morning because I really wanted to get the movement out of the case and the dial off to see if there were any markings lying in wait. Sad to say all I could find is a serial number. But at least that is something! Also, another picture of some tell-tale shaped parts (the setting bridge in particular) that might help narrow down narrow down the maker. I think it is clear clear in the photo but the matching numbers are 42390.

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The dial appears to be enamel plated brass, bronze, or copper. There is dark brownish orange metal similar to aged brass visible under worn out enamel on the back where it rubs against the main plate and well as the feet being unfinished. There are a few cracks on the back but nothing I think should be cause for concern.It

Of equal importance, or perhaps even more important to my efforts focused on getting it running again, having taken the dial off, I know have access to the “click” which will allow me to release all the stored up energy in the mainspring and safely disassemble the movement. In this movement, it is the silver arm that runs in horizontally from the edge of the main plate starting near the 10 o’clock position. It is nestled down in a slot and at the right end you can see how/where it engages the ratchet wheel (two or three teeth are visible).

One more very minor issue found: the hairspring is not parallel to the balance and could be brushing against the underside of the balance cock which would also be robbing power from the balance and added to the low amplitude.

 

Rich - great progress, thank you.

Any thoughts on where to research next with that serial number to figure out the manufacturer? Or should we wait until it's fully disassembled - wondering if there will be a hallmark or maker's mark somewhere on the internals.

 

I’ve posted this and a few other pictures of your watch to the Facebook group that @Fiat2Ferrari recommended in an earlier post but so far, there’s just not quite enough to go off of. I’m hoping to discover other markings as it is further disassembled but not sure if that will happen. Once I know all the info we have, I’ll try to figure out a plan. There is a catalog called “best fit” I’ve hear of (don’t own a copy) that I have seen people use to identify movements by their “signature parts” so that might be a method if it goes back far enough in time.

*corrections to my previous post: what I called the “setting bridge” is properly called a “rocking bar”.

 

I just ordered the BestFit catalog in PDF version, if I actually receive it I'll send it to you.

 

I like this thread.


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As promised, here is an image of the non-parallel hairspring. The GREEN arrow is pointing to the balance wheel which is fairly squared up to the balance staff (perpendicular to the axis of rotation). The RED arrow points to one end of the hairspring and the RED line highlights just how out of level it is. Depending on how the spring expands/contracts during oscillations, it could be bumping the arm above it (Balance Cock) and slowing down the balance's movement. At the other end, it could be bumping up against the balance wheel.

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And to show how grimy and dirty the old oil is, this photo of the hour wheel shows that the dial washer is completely compressed down to the wheel and stuck. The black specks all around are dirt and old oil/grease.

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Ok... I was looking closer at the first picture of my last post and something just looked off. I figured out what it is that was bothering me. The balance itself isn't flat! In the image below you can see the RED line that highlights the flat outer rim of the balance and the GREEN arch showing how the spokes of the wheel go UP to to the hub! The wheel should be flat.

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When we change the focal length a bit, you can see how that causes a major problem. The outer edge of the balance wheel is sliding across the escapement cock (arm that holds the upper bushing of for the escapement wheel). I believe we've found the culprit that accounts for a majority of the low amplitude and poor running! *Note: the red arrow here shows that an extra weight was affixed with shellac to the edge of the wheel to rotationally balance it. I've never seen that before. It is, to the best of my knowledge, usually done with adjustable screws at specific locations around the wheel or by drilling a small hole to remove weight rather than adding it.

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This is going to be a hairy fix (you'll get the joke in a minute I hope). I'm going to have to get the balance wheel/staff out and press the wheel flat without damaging the hairspring.

 

Also, just in case anyone else is interested in helping us find out who made this movement/watch, the movement itself is 36mm (or 16''' if I've done my math right) in diameter.

 

Not sure, but if this site may be of help:

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com

 

An excellent site indeed. I'm going to have to run the serial number against every manufacturer listed to see if any pop up as being at the right time period and go from there. Thank you! It is not close enough to any of the standard American pocket watch sizes (closest is an 8s) to have been made here. Definitely done with lignes as the unit of measure.

 

I've been doing that all morning, no matches yet.

I then reverted to their image upload page, I'm on page 49 of of 900 (each page has pictures of 20 different watches) looking for a movement that looks like mine, it's gonna be awhile.....