McLaren | Page 30 | FerrariChat

McLaren

Discussion in 'F1' started by NEP, Feb 6, 2018.

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  1. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    I find sad that Ron Dennis' contribution to McLaren is slowly erased; for me, he was McLaren like Enzo was Ferrari, or Chapman was Lotus.
     
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  2. TheMayor

    TheMayor Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    Feb 11, 2008
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    That facility has a limited market if it was ever offered. So much of it is designed specifically for an auto plant. And its high maintenance. If anyone were to re-purpose the building it might be cheaper to tear it down and start over.
     
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  3. freshmeat

    freshmeat F1 Veteran

    Aug 30, 2011
    7,257
    Wow...possible end of McLaren? Sounds desperate at this point to sell then leaseback HQ campus.

    Hypothetical Q, if they go under, what’s going to happen to the value of all these passenger cars? With so much proprietary tech, there won’t be any indie capable of properly servicing them moving forward...
     
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  4. Cavallino Nero Rampante

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    ST
    A company would buy the IP and chances are another company, possibly the same company as well, would buy the inventory of cars and parts.
     
  5. TheMayor

    TheMayor Nine Time F1 World Champ
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    Feb 11, 2008
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    Until McLaren changes its business model it will never be profitable. I'm sorry but I'm the broken record since they introduced the Mp412C -- still one of the most ridiculous car names of all time.

    It should stop trying to be Ferrari and Lamborghini and make 1 of a 100 or 200 special editions only for a select client base. Sell them for $2M + each. Dump its US dealer distribution. Make special editions and engineering for other car makers. Make chassis and components for race cars of all types.

    They made more money on the P1 than any other car in their history. And, its brilliant.

    Dallara is not Ferrari. They do not make daily driver sports cars. They do really well. The new Maserati MX20 has a Dallara engineered CF chassis. The Alfa 4c has a Dallara engineered CF chassis. They make the Indy car chassis and other racing chassis. They sell their engineering to the highest bidder.

    There is a limit to the number of 2 seat sports cars the market will hold. Just making "a good car" is not enough today. People demand the service to go with their luxury vehicle. And if you sell it as a daily driver, be prepared to support the customer immediately when there is an issue.

    McLaren will die from a theory -- that they can be the British Ferrari. Well, who cares if you have been losing money since the day you opened your doors.
     
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  6. sammysaber

    sammysaber Formula Junior

    Dec 21, 2011
    553
    I'm sure most Tifosi will always remember Ron - whilst a rival for many years, despite his flaws, the respect is there.

    As for road cars, not that I have one, this clip which did the rounds was pretty shocking given the brand ethos :




    Best,
    Sammy
     
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  7. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #732 william, Sep 10, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2020
    At that end of the market, you are right.
    The market must be near saturation with Ferrari, Lamborghini, Audi R8, Aston Martin, Mercedes, Porsche, Nissan, Corvette, Maserati all producing competing very expensive exotic cars, 2-seat, 450hp+, plenty of carbon fibre, etc...

    But there is another niche in the market that no one seems to be interested, apart Mazda; a no-frill small sport car, no more expensive than the average SUV.
    Since the collapse of Triumph, MG, Austin-Healey, no one has tried to replace them. I am talking about 200hp max, small 2-seater roadsters.
    That would be the sort of car young buyers would be interested before they have a family, etc ... To get their kicks, they have to buy a hot hatchback instead.
     
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  8. Igor Ound

    Igor Ound F1 Veteran

    Sep 30, 2012
    8,102
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    Garagistas...
     
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  9. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    9,252
    Those sports cars had 70-100 HP and came in weighting 1600-1700 pounds.
    They were somewhat quick, somewhat fast, lively to drive, handled well, forgiving, and basically just fun.
    They were not, however, user maintenance free vehicles. You almost had to be your own mechanic to keep one running.
    My best HS friend had an MGB, I had a Fiat X1/9.

    Today's version could have 200 HP using a 1 litre motorcycle engine/transmission with a modicum of additional cooling, a 150 MPH top end, and 0-60 in 5 seconds.
    What I don't know is if you could get the weight down to 1700 pounds and meet any kind of bumper crap.
    Mazda is pushing 180 HP and 2,300 pounds. It probably is almost a maintenance free vehicle.

    So, what we need is 20 more HP and 600 pounds less weight, or 120 more HP at the same weight (2300 pounds).
     
  10. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper Three Time F1 World Champ
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    I loved my X1/9 and it was reliable enough to take me on a 4K mile tour of the western US. I had a Ferrari/Maserati mechanic service it, and it was worth it. Still puzzled why FIAT is only making 500's now. I have never liked 500's. But I'd buy a modernized X1/9 in a heartbeat.
     
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  11. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
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    I think their downfall is too many editions of what is really the same car each time...I genuinely can't tell the difference between most of their models, which is shocking when you think of it, having to do a double take whether you're seeing a 650S or a P1 (wing down obviously)!

    The same tub, same basic engine in various trims and make 4-5 different models of it....then special models of each one of them...they've done so many ''special'' cars now everyone will just wait and buy 2nd hand as people aren't fools, you don't want to lose stupid amounts of money in a matter of months because the inevitable newer, more specialer model has come out.

    Some will argue Ferrari ''does the same'', but I beg to differ...For the 488 they did a coupe and spider, and lightweight version of each. Everyone knows those would come. The same basic engine is used in the lusso T, portofino and Roma now. but they're all different layout cars and easily identifiable as a very different car.

    I have a lot of respect for the Mclaren F1 team, but I believe Zak Brown is steering the team in a great direction now and they'll be regular contenders for podiums, perhaps even as soon as next year.
     
  12. 375+

    375+ F1 World Champ
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    Dec 28, 2005
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    The House that Ron built.
     
  13. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
    7,481
    Well, it´s not the first company that does a leaseback and survives to tell it.

    The F1 team is going up, and with the budget cap it will go even better. Also their sports car business, although it may be loosing money now, is the biggest in Great Britain, they´ve passed Aston Martin starting from zero in just a decade. That must be worth something for someone: maybe they´ll have to sell part or all of it, but it will survive.
     
  14. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
    7,481
    But to sell those cars at a reasonable price you have to be Mazda and build thousands of them, something that´s out of reach for McLaren, Ferrari or even Porsche.

    Even Mazda can´t do it these days: they had to do a deal with FIAT and build the 124 Spider along the MX5 to make it profitable.
     
  15. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Jun 3, 2006
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    There have been whispers that several rounds of talks regarding the sports car business had taken place with BMW over the years, denied from both sides.
    I think that with the BREXIT situation, many potential investors in UK got cold feet, so we have to wait several years for the situation to settle down.
     
  16. william

    william Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Very true all that.
    I don't expect to see McLaren, Ferrari or Porsche (although ...) to get to the lower end of the market, but that niche is neglected by the big constructors who could mass-produce cheap sports cars, some even low-cost. Ford, Renault, VW, SEAT, Skoda, where are you ?
    BTW, the 124 spider is now off the FIAT catalogue here.
     
  17. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
    7,481
    Well, it´s neglected because they´re not very profitable: low sales and can´t share platforms with another models (at least if you want to do it rear wheel drive). I think that Mercedes is going to kill the SLC. BMW had to share the costs with Toyota to do the Z4, and I don´t think it´s being a hit compared with the previous versions.

    The MX5 is still alive because always has been by far the best seller of that niche, and is an iconic car for their brand image, but I don´t know for how long they´ll keep it.
     
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  18. ferrariformulauno

    ferrariformulauno Formula 3
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    https://www.gordonmurraydesign.com/en/istream.html

    I’m surprised Gordon Murray’s iStream manufacturing process never got any traction. It was designed for low volume production like 20,000 up to 100,000 units IIRC,

    to get below 2000 lbs seems only feasible with a carbon fiber type tub.

    The 4C was nice but too pricey by 30$k to be in the MX5 class


    Murray Design has the imagination and it has developed a radical new process of making equally mould-breaking vehicles. It’s called iStream® and it’s a fundamental re-think on the way cars are designed, developed and manufactured. Holistic in its cradle-to-grave approach, it combines lightweight Formula One technology, low-carbon propulsion, excellent safety standards and unprecedented manufacturing flexibility. iStream® will be the biggest revolution in high volume automotive manufacturing since Henry Ford introduced the production line over a century ago. Conventionality and conformity have had their day.

    iStream® is a radical cradle-to-grave rethink on the automotive manufacturing process that uses known technologies. It is centred around a ‘Think Light’ philosophy that creates a virtuous cycle of low-weight benefits:

    • It employs Formula One technology with all of its benefits and none of its prohibitive costs
    • Cost-effective flexibility enables a single production line to assemble
    • diverse iStream® vehicle variants with different powertrains
    • Compact, quiet and low-carbon, an iStream® production site require up to 80% less investment than traditional assembly plants
    • An iStream® vehicle exceeds current Euro NCAP passenger and pedestrian impact regulations
    • An iStream® vehicle delivers a 40% reduction in CO2 emissions over its entire lifecycle compared to its traditional rivals
    iStream® forges an entirely new production method that defies conventionality with its Formula One-derived construction and materials technologies. The core tenet of this process is a fit-for-purpose approach to lightweight material usage and low parts count to achieve an ultra-low vehicle weight. Reducing weight benefits every aspect of a vehicle. The combined iStream® result is an advantageous weight-saving of up to 200kg on a typical supermini.

    If its platform, chassis and components are all lighter, it will require a smaller and lighter powerplant and transmission, enhancing performance and economy while lowering carbon emissions. Components can be smaller and lighter, too – brakes, suspension, steering and cooling elements can be scaled accordingly, further reducing the vehicle’s environmental impact.

    And a lighter vehicle will generate less wear and tear on these parts, boosting durability and further lowering the costs of running the car.

    This highly innovative and low-weight iStream® architecture and packaging options also delivers uncompromised safety, comfort and refinement levels.

    • iStream® intelligently strips out unnecessary weight to create a virtuous cycle of benefits
    • Less weight means less wear and tear on parts and components, further reducing running costs
    • Lowering weight – by up to 200kg in a typical supermini – boosts economy and performance
    For
     
  19. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/152194/mclaren-against-early-driver-swap-with-f1-rivals

    McLaren says it has zero interest in an early swap of 2021 drivers for this season, because it thinks it benefits with its current line-up while other teams are "destabilised".

    The Woking-based outfit was at the centre of the driver merry-go-round that was triggered by Ferrari electing not to extend Sebastian Vettel's contract in to next year.

    Ferrari made a swoop for Carlos Sainz Jr to replace Vettel, while McLaren then signed up Daniel Ricciardo to race alongside Lando Norris. Vettel has just signed a deal to join Aston Martin.

    With the 2021 deals in place, there have been some suggestions that it would make sense for all the teams to go for an early contract release - so the drivers can get a head start in getting to know their new teams.

    However, McLaren CEO Zak Brown has brushed off any talk of McLaren accepting that - because he thinks the solid relationship his team still enjoys with Sainz is in contrast to problems that some rivals are having elsewhere.

    "We're happy with our driver line-up this year," said Brown. "We're happy with everyone else's driver line-up this year.

    "I think we have two drivers that are doing an excellent job, and some other teams which have disruption in their garage.

    "So I think I want to continue the harmonious relationship we have going on right now. And I think if we were to consider changing that, it would maybe only be to the benefit of other teams that are maybe a little bit more destabilised in the garage."
     
  20. johnireland

    johnireland F1 Veteran
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    Mar 19, 2017
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    You don't have to make a new one...the used car market is filled with practical yet high performance cars for modest money. A Porsche 996, Boxsters, Alfa Spiders, and the used Giulias will be given away by dealers, maybe not blindingly fast still the Mondial 8 and QV offer a true Ferrari experience for reasonable money. And there are Asian bargains in the sports car and GT used market...a Honda 2000...350Z, Scions and Hundai...and all of these are relatively analog cars great (except for the Giulia and the new Asian cars). Don't let BaT prices scare you away, there are cars out there at good prices.
     
  21. jcurry

    jcurry Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Vettel would be the only driver who might want to switch early. Carlos and Daniel are doing quite well with their current equipment.
     
  22. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

    #748 DF1, Dec 12, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2020
    McLaren close to selling big stake to US-based investors in £560m deal
    https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/12159565/mclaren-close-to-selling-big-stake-to-us-based-investors-in-560m-deal

    US-based investors close to buying a big stake in McLaren, valuing the F1 racing team at more than £550m; McClaren selling a minority stake to investors including MSP Sports Capital, Sky News has learned
    By Mark Kleinman, Sky News
    Last Updated: 12/12/20 8:10pm

    A consortium of US-based investors is close to buying a big stake in the McLaren Formula One team.

    Sky News can exclusively reveal that MSP Sports Capital, whose partners have had extensive involvement in Major League Baseball, American basketball and European football, is leading a group that will inject £185m into McLaren Racing over a two-year period.

    The deal could be announced as early as Sunday, according to sources, coinciding with McLaren's most important F1 race for years.
     
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  23. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

    Dec 4, 2004
    14,244
    I guess I need some clarification on what they are buying. They're buying into the McLaren Group Limited subsidiary McLaren Racing? This doesn't involved the other two subsidiaries McLaren Automotive and McLaren Applied, right?
     
  24. DF1

    DF1 Two Time F1 World Champ

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