is the bubble due to burst?

... but, but, but,..
... what about all those anxiously (or patiently ?) waiting for their bubble(s) to burst ???

 

Possibly...just maybe

 

Looks like someone got a bargain yesterday, or is this the market level now? Catalogue estimate was £300k to £400k GBP. Bonhams : 1959 Ferrari 250 GT Series II Coupé Chassis no. 1533 GT

 

So, if I read the description carefully, it sounds like it doesn’t have the correct engine. Is that right?

It’s still a lot of money, in my opinion. For a PF II?

Matt

 

1533 GT has a non-matching engine 1815 GT (out of an S2 Cab).
Expect a 25% difference. At least.
The original engine 1533 GT is in a 250 GTE.

Marcel Massini

 

So much for Bonhams' estimates. I'll let you draw your own conclusions....

 

Just out of curiosity, would you by change have any idea or guess how it was able "to achieve the all-important..." (?) "...Classiche certification" as per auction description ?

 

The original engine is not required to achieve a Classiche Red Book. However, the correct type engine is. The Red Book will state that the engine has been replaced and that it is of the correct type.

 

Thanks.
Too bad though, especially if existence/location of the original is known.
IMO, just makes the "book" even more meaningless.
What's next ? "The car XYZ really doesn't have any of its original running gear or other components, but has something similar and still sort of looks like the model it supposed to be, so we'll certify it as such".

 

Bonhams sold a non-matching 1959 250 GT PF Coupe for £230k all-in yesterday. Classiche-certified.

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/26122/lot/120/?category=list&length=96&page=1 must be some sort of a recent low.

 

Same car being discussed.

 

Ok - been a long day...

 

Oh, for a long day.

 

Steve and Steve,

Any guesstimates for the spread between a (numbers matching) Series I and a Series II? Thanks.

 

If that's the new normal pricing, I'm a buyer at those levels. I don't really need matching numbers (it's nice, though, as it makes it easier to sell).

 

I think this is insane. You cannot get Bloomington gold at a Corvette show with out an original engine.. heck you don't even rate at most other judging events if the the mill is not what came with the car.

I dont think you can get on the lawn at pebble if the car does not have it's original drivetrain. Why does Ferrari Classic a car with non original parts? Because it's a cash grab.

 

I have little doubt that Classiche is largely motivated by profit, but...

There were/are a lot more Corvettes than Ferraris, so it makes sense to set the “authentic/original” bar higher with a car like a Corvette.

Also, the flip side of this argument is that on any fully restored car, many of the molecules never came from the factory, so it is not entirely clear where you draw the line, regarding which molecules matter, and which don’t.

Personally, I’ve come to peace with Classiche by looking at it not as a “stamp of approval”, but rather as a documentation of some basic information about the state of the car.

Now that the factory is more guarded about build information (which admittedly is also likely a profit-motivated thing), folks that are new-comers to the community get some real data about their purchases when they see what a Red Book says. If the book says that the block is not original, then at least everyone knows it, and can make their own assessments about what that means about the value of the car. I think it is pretty easy to argue that the Red Book provides a service; once it exists, Sellers have a motivation to mention that the car was checked, and buyers have a motivation to look at what the book actually says; so it becomes an avenue for disclosure.

Now if some buyers/sellers think that the Red Book increases value more than having an original block, then I would claim that are suffering-from/spreading mis-information (again, perhaps mis-information motivated by profit, and perhaps even encouraged by the factory); what the Red Book could be accurately considered to be is information that helps to establish the value of the car.

Of course, the Red Book might have mistakes in it, as the factory folks are probably not the most authoritative about various things, but at least they have the factory records, so that is something.

Certainly I’ve had sellers and brokers tell me things that were *way* more incorrect that what I generally hear attributed to Red Books... Oh, and I’m sure that sellers and brokers are also at least partially motivated by profit as well...

 

Doesn't the estimate take into consideration things like title history, condition, and engine/originality?

 

And to think corvette owners are married to their sisters or cousins (prob both if you ask me).

 

with all due respect. The classiche does reference the fact that the engine is not the one that came with the car. It clearly states that it is the correct type for the vehicle. This puts the “certification” on a different level. It would then be up to the owner or perspective owner to decide how much that detracts from the vehicle while going over the rest of the car to make sure it is what it is. While there issues with the process I am not sure this is one of them.

 

What I don't get is if the correct engine still exists, why don't they swap?

 

you missed Marcel's post: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/147622239/

 

No I didn't. He explains nothing other than the facts. He gives no reason WHY THEY DON'T JUST CORRECT THE SITUATION.

That is the question I asked. It remains unanswered.

 

because it's in another car? You mean why don't they buy the other car to swap it out?

 

Eng

Engineering these swaps is not easy and they rarely end well. 1533 GT will indeed get its number matching engine but how would that help the owner of the 250 GTE that the engine is in. Minimally you would have to offer to rebuild the engine that you were willing to swap out. Ultimately the chances someone ends up unhappy or possible in a lawsuit remains high. The idea of buying the 250GTE would be the only rational solution. Assuming you could buy it at market value taking into consideration that it has a non-number matching engine I suppose after the swap you could get the money you paid for it back.