One ad pops up every time I search for a Mondial...

Brown car at some place called Gateway Classic Cars in Denver, Colo., which is apparently a subsidiary dealership of a place in O'Fallon, Ill.

I happen to like the brown color, and the price is very nice, but I just happened to run a review check of the dealership on Google and it's a minefield of complaints. Since I don't live anywhere near Colorado, I'd really be putting myself out there to deal on any car sight-unseen, but being that I'm in south Alabama I don't have much choice.

I've seen this particular car for sale for, literally, years. The YouTube video the dealership made of it has been up for two years now.

I'm getting close to the point where I might actually be buying one of these things, but I'm not looking for a perfect example, as I cannot afford the top range of these cars and would have to probably think of it as a project of sorts. I just have one shot to get it right and don't want to take the wrong shot.

Anyone know this car or this dealership, or can offer any advice?

Jess

 

Read again what you said in paragraphs 2 and 3 in your post. You cite clear red flags, and yet you are still drawn to that brown Mondial. If it were me, I'd look elsewhere.

 

Hence my running it by the group to see if there was anyone with direct feedback. We all have to be wary of the phenomenon of "negative reviews only" on the internet. Most people who have a good experience don't spend a lot of time going back and broadcasting it. But people who have negative experiences often have an I'm-gonna-show-them attitude.

The other thing that makes me not automatically throw that ad out, is I have personal experience with something like this. In fact, I still own it. I've owned a Jaguar XJS for about 8 years now that spent over a year languishing in an online ad. I considered buying it for my wife, and passed on it to buy her an XK8. A year later, the same car was still for sale, with the price dropped a bit. Once I started looking into it, I found out the car had belonged to a gentleman who had passed away, and the owner of a used car dealership in his town had offered to help the family move the car, but because it was located in a small town and he didn't know anything about V-12 Jaguars, he couldn't answer questions intelligently for prospective buyers.

Fortunately enough, I lived fairly close by at the time and was able to go see that car in person, test drive it and look it over. Because I'd owned several old Jags (including an almost identical V-12 XJS) before, I knew what to look for. I bought it the next week and have owned it ever since. I still drive it a day or two a week.

While you are probably right, and the information I have on hand is indicative of red flags, I also don't want to pass up something good because of prejudice. Had I done that back in 2012 I would have missed out on a good XJS.

The other thing about this particular car is I like the less "traditional" colors on a Mondial, and I tend to gravitate to cars that have a bit of character built up in them because I like to drive what I own without feeling scared of every pebble or potential scratch. I am not turned off by "noble scars." While I certainly love to look at the restored museum pieces, I am equally as fond of the old hunting dogs as I am the show dogs.

Jess

 

I'd suggest 2 things: First, place a "Mondial Wanted" post in the Ferrarichat classifieds. List your preferences, ie: coupe vs. cab, 8 vs QV, 3.2, t, etc. You never know—someone right here may have exactly what you are interested in. That's kind of what happened in my case.

Next, if you genuinely wish to pursue that particular car, post a request in the Colorado region asking for shops who can do a PPI on that Mondial. Getting a PPI by a local mechanic/shop is imperative in this instance where you can't easily go in person, and will make your decision to continue or walk away, that much easier. If it is the right car for you, it'll work out. Just make sure to be patient and do your due diligence.

 

JessN16,

Thanks for taking the time to write a well-thought out response to my post. You make some good points, to be sure. Good luck with your search!

VGM911

 

Remember; sometimes you are buying the seller more than the car.

I recently did a 180º on a car because I did a deep search on the dealer's reputation (every red flag imaginable) and also got a local opinion from an F-Chatter. Yet, I was still drawn to the car. I had to overrule emotion with logic.

BTW, I once own a Prugna Mondial 3.2 Cabriolet. That was a horse of a different color!

 

Gateway Classics has showrooms all over the country. They are a consignment dealer and don't own anything they are selling, just acting as an expensive middle man. I tried to buy a Mondial from the one in my neck of the woods before I bought mine in 2018. It was not a satisfying experience, to say the least. They wouldn't even let me drive the car around their parking lot, and I had to show the salesman how to open the engine cover. If you can find out who actually owns the car, try and deal with them instead.

 

I’ll be a little bold and give a “cost spectrum” on red flagged Mondi’s. If I’m wrong our commenters will tell us! (A good thing).

A $10,000 purchase gets me a potential $40,000+ repair bill.

$20,000 - $30,000+

30,000 - $20,000+

40,000 - $10,000+.

Bottom Line: The minimum price for a very good Mondi should be over $50,000.

Correct me, please, if this spectrum is wrong in your view. SG


Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat

 

I saw that same car coming up during my search and I can understand your intrigue. It does look like a unique example. Having grown up in the business, I can tell you some of the more miserable operators we knew weren't all that friendly, but knew cars. Some of the friendliest smooth talkers were the ones dumping in stop leaks, slathering bondo over rotted frames. I also try to take online reviews with a grain of salt. First off, as stated in this thread, the angriest buyers and generally the loudest, whereas happy folks don't have much reason to write about it. And don't forget plenty of fake ones on top of that.

No clue on this car, but my first step would be to call them up and get a vibe. Do they know the car, are they trying to be helpful? That should tell volumes. I wouldn't get too hung up on the age of the inventory. Our dealership had a few units that would linger FOREVER, but since we had no floorplan (i.e. all cars owned and not financed), my father never cared. If you speak with them and like what you hear, consider your next steps. PPI or go out to check the car out...be very careful with who does the PPI, some aren't worth the paper they are written on. You can also buy sight unseen, wouldn't recommend, but that's what I did. Seller knew his product and didn't "oversell".

 

Thanks to all for the helpful responses and the explanation of Gateway.

After making this post last night, I just happened to be on eBay later and the car is being auctioned there this weekend. Assuming $30k is the reserve, it's far short of reserve price right now. Also, Gateway has an eBay score of around 93% (with only limited feedback responses, however), which is better than their Google score for sure, but I remember the day where anything under 95% on eBay meant buyers should run for the hills. Assuming the car doesn't sell in this auction, I have some homework to do for sure.

Jess

 

Your point is well-taken. In general, a newer car will be in better condition and carry a higher price than an older car, saving on maintenance and repair costs (especially if under warranty). However, depreciation and insurance most assuredly will be higher.

Conversely, an older car carries a lower acquisition cost, but typically have higher maintenance and repair costs over the remainder of its life. However, depreciation and insurance costs will provide savings for the owner.

For the OP, the costs you cite are illustrative, and not actual projections. But the principle you base your post on is one that I agree with.

 

Dear Jess,
I too was intrigued by that car when I was searching this summer. I love the color, and in some ways looked like what I was looking for: a solid car requiring some sorting out by an avid do-it-yourselfer. Problem is, the consignment shop isn't all that motivated to negotiate, as it is content to collect storage fees from the owner.
I called them up; one of the salesmen emailed me some service records for the car. He said it ran when it was brought in, but that was a while ago. So assume that it doesn't run. My main concern concern with that car is that it has rust -- if you look carefully you can see bubbles near the left rear lights and, if I remember, along one of the wheel arches. I asked their salesman to send me some underbody photos, but he said the car was parked to closely to other cars and couldn't get a good view underneath. That means it's got significant corrosion issues. One thing I learned from my car, which has a pristine underbody and was garaged during the winter, is that even well looked-after Mondials rust.
Bottom line: that car is a project car, for someone with the right skills. But unfortunately they're not asking project car money for it. Unless, of course, prices go way up and 30K suddenly becomes a bargain basement price. This summer, though, 30K still bought a nice, if not perfect, example. So I kept looking.
Hope that helps!
Hugh

 

As one who has owned five Mondials, you are looking at the lowest rung on the Ferrari V8 ladder.
The 3.0 (Mondial 8) is less desirable than the 3.2 and of course the "t". It's a coupe vs a cabriolet. Its has a "no sale" color vs "resale red". Its OK that you love it, but you will be stuck with it and likely will be "upside down" when you include repairs. "Buy the best car you can afford" is often quoted in the Ferrari world. You may have to work on increasing your budget for now and pass on this car.

 

The car advertised is a QV, but it still has the 3.0 motor. Not quite the lowest rung, but only a step up from the 2-valve Mondial 8.

 

Is there a way you can get access to the photos and upload them to a cloud? Then you could post the cloud link and enable folks (like myself that have basically rebuilt their entire Mondial) to spot potential issues. You can tell an awful lot about a car just by looking at the engine bay. hnichols hit the nail on the head with rust and bubble corrosion spots. Add the "not running" condition and I think you are in a perfect spot to make a 15k cash offer............like walk in the dealership with a briefcase full of ben franklins. You say take it or leave it........You can not spend 30k for a non-running rusted car. Hell, after you paint it, the color will show a slight difference (between panels) and someone will call you out for an unreported accident. Its a viscous cycle. By the way.....if those are metric rims (not the 16" upgades that came in 1986) you can expect to pay $400 per tire just for the rubbers. I bet The existing tires are not safe to drive 100 mph on.

 

When I do eventually buy one -- I will probably pass up on this one assuming it remains priced as it currently is -- I will only be looking for a QV or 3.2, for ease-of-maintenance reasons vis-a-vis the engine itself. Also I will only be considering coupes, which is a personal thing relating to rain, theft prevention and rollover safety.

My biggest point of hesitation with a Mondial in general is I want to drive it, and by that I mean drive it quite a bit. Like around, say, 3k miles or even more per year if I chose. My personal philosophy for cars is that while I can afford to have some weird things in my garage, I do not have the means to make a museum piece out of a car by keeping everything pristine and untouched by time. I see cars as things to enjoy in their chosen environment, meaning out on the road. I learned this as a teen when my dad and I restored his '70 Stingray, and found out during the process that we happened to be sitting on a very odd interior/exterior color combo that had only been put in and on about 300 or so cars. So suddenly, our restored Vette shot upward in value, because it was still all original and had modest mileage.

But the flip side was that, also suddenly, we stopped enjoying driving it very much. We became scared of scratches and dings. I watched my dad choose to garage it and instead drive a Ford Tempo (!) as his daily driver. But from sitting up, the Corvette became unreliable, which meant it got driven even less. This continued to snowball until it basically spent the last three years of its life with us collecting dust.

I promised myself I would never do that, even if it meant that I did something to hurt the value of my cars. Dad and I were also into old Jaguars, and I've now owned 10 of them. I drive them as much as I can. I have about 156,000 miles on one and 160,000 on another. But a funny thing happens when you drive a car that often: They seem to like it. They squeak and rattle less, they start more quickly in the mornings, and they tend to leave you stranded a lot less. About seven years ago now, I changed jobs and had to commute 260 miles round-trip every day for about 3 months. Most of those trips, I made in my XJS V12. Aside from it making me very popular with gas station attendants along the route, I had no issues. My XJS was as reliable as the sunrise until I took it off the road again once I bought a modern everyday car, and then it started getting fussy.

But I also know that a lot of people who are selling their cars (i.e., their Mondial) want to have some control over its next stop in life. They would prefer their low-mileage car go to someone who would give it a similar lifestyle, and I both get that and respect it. So I'm actually comfortable with a higher-mileage car that isn't pristine, and that wears its "noble scars" well. I want one I'm not scared to commute into the city on a Friday evening with my wife for a dinner date, and be so paranoid about the surrounding traffic that it affects my personality.

Such a car might not exist, which is why I'm also looking at Lotus Evoras. I want the mid-engined, 2+2 configuration so we can take my young son with me if we want.

To give you an idea of what I do with my current old Jags, take a look at this photo. The blue car is my XJ6, which is actually a 3M 2080 wrap and not a paint job, because the lowest quote I got for a restoration repaint was $12,000 and I paid only $3,400 for the car. The previous owner installed the seats from a '98 XK8 and then dyed the interior a cream color to match the seats, so there's no chance this car would have ever been made original again even before I became its owner. It took me about 2 years to get the demons out of the fuel system, but I tinkered when I could and now I have a car I would literally cross the country in if I needed to. The gray XJS? Note the wheels, because XJSes have a similar problem to Mondials -- ~15-inch wheels and declining tire options. Those are color-matched CCW custom-offset wheels that now wear modern rubber, with a 4-speed 700R4 transmission rather than the factory GM400 (I get 38 miles per gallon at 68 mph!), an a suspension based directly off the specs of the famous TWR XJS at Bathurst, pieced together from components as close to Walkinshaw's specs as possible (which meant I sourced parts from both London and from Kentucky). I will drive that car tomorrow to tour commercial properties with a client who loves old cars. Are either of these cars original? No, but they weren't original when I got them -- and most importantly, they are much-loved.

Jess
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Your ability to "tinker" with a car will serve you well in the Mondial world. Still, it's a Ferrari and thus subject to the "Ferrari Tax" at many levels. I do like your light blue "wrap"; in Ferrari speak that would be "Grigio Alloy."

 

One brief note regarding Mondial wheels: many of the OEM wheels on US cars are 16 inchers. My 3.2 has them although some other 3.2s do not. There are new aftermarket "repro" 16 inchers available (ie: Superformance) that resemble the QV style wheel and readily replace TRXs.

[P.S. Nice XJs!!]

 

One other note regarding wheels and tires: There is a site sponsor here (Longstone Classic Tyres) that do offer NEW rubber for TRX wheels. So if maintaining originality is the goal, it can be done.

 

I'm only a few months into Mondial ownership, but also adore and have owned a few XJ6s, but always chickened out on the V12. I would venture to say you would be the perfect owner for a Mondial. I get a similar vibe when tinkering on my jags when compared to the Mondial. Both very well built cars, but with a sprinkling of some random and parts bin engineering. The car you described is definitely out there, keep looking. I found my 3.2 on this forum and it has 60K miles. I, like you, drive my cars and preferred one that just didn't sit around. Post in the wanted section of the site, I ran into some great folks that helped me in my search.

 

I've owned two XJS V12s and one XJ12L. The XJ12L was a problem child from the beginning; it did not run when we purchased it. Pro tip: If you answer an ad for a V-12 Jaguar that includes the words "not running," you run.

As for the two XJS cars, one of those two still ranks in my top 5 cars owned in terms of reliability, and the other one (my current one) is in my top 10. The engine weighs as much as Godzilla but it is really hard to break. Maintenance -- especially the fuel lines on top of the motor -- kill more of them than anything, due to engine fires from the ill-conceived decision to run the fuel that close to some of the engine's hottest areas.

The straight 6 engine, code XK6, is stupid easy to work on. It may be the easiest car I've ever worked on to do routine maintenance. The V12 engine, sadly, is the opposite. Spark plugs are a 10-minute job on an XK6; on the V12, it's 12-15 hours and requires the disassembly of the parts on top of the motor. And I'm giving you the time estimate for a trained Jag mechanic, not for Shadetree Joe.

Having said that, I would not be the least bit scared of the V12. I would strongly suggest mating it to a 700R4 transmission (using a kit called a Quarterbreed, readily available from an aftermarket supplier) to get an overdrive, or source a manual that will fit it (I believe there's a unit shared with some BMWs that is almost a direct bolt-up).

For a Mondial, I am only really worried about the timing belt service. I have watched videos on it and it looks fairly straightforward, but with a lot of small checks and rechecks that if you miss, are probably going to wind up with you getting bitten. The decision to buy this car versus a more modern Evora or something else entirely will ultimately come down to that one specific maintenance issue, most likely.

Jess

 

I drove a friend's Evora over the Thanksgiving weekend and really liked it. There's definitely one in my future, but it wouldn't be at the expense of my Mondial. The Mondial is far from modern in comparison and that's really part of its charm.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the belt service issue. There are a bunch of resources on how to do it yourself. While it could bite you, the likelihood of it going wrong is fairly low as long as you follow the guides and posts that are in both the Mondial and the 308/328 subforums.

Oh, and be patient and wait for the right car. The wrong one could cut you! It's easy to get upside down in these cars fairly quickly.

2cam

 

Hi Jess

Thought that I'd give you my experience. But to make a long story short -- the car has been a joy to own, and relatively inexpensive.

I bought an 85 Mondial Coupe 6 years ago (2015). I paid $25K and bought it from a broker in California (I live in Texas).

Mechanically, she was very well sorted out, and there was evidence (lots of receipts) of consistent maintenance. She had 65K miles at the time of purchase. She came with regular sized 16" wheels and tires -- but the deal included the original TRX sized wheels (I've got those stored in the garage, as 16" tires are much easier to find and much cheaper than TRX tires).

The exterior was original and in pretty good shape -- nicks, small dings, lot's of rock-chips on the front bumper (the previous owner used it for a track instruction car).

The interior was pretty much trashed. The seats had become very stiff, and the dye was very faded/discolored. Plus there were a few holes in the drivers and passengers front seats.

It was the exterior condition and mechanical condition that convinced me to buy this particular car (I had searched off and on for about 2 years).

In the 6 years since purchase, there has been no really bad news, and no really bad mechanical issues. Having said that, I should point out that my adult son is an ASE mechanic (he no longer works as a mechanic, but has the skills), and we had previously been restoring old VWs (Karmann Ghias) for about 20 years. So, we both are comfortable with most maintenance tasks.

In 6 years, we've only had 2 big maintenance issues -- 1. Alternator failed and 2. The fuel distributor went sideways, and caused the car to run on only 1 bank of cylinders.

For the alternator -- we pulled it out (about 1 hour work), and took it to a local alternator/generator rebuild shop. Cost $100 to rebuild. That was 4 years ago and is still going strong.
For the Fuel distributor -- we tried rebuilding it, but never could get the tuning to work out exactly how we wanted. So, I bought a rebuilt unit (on Ebay) for about $500. We installed that puppy and now the car is going strong again.

One major, but inexpensive issue, was that we replaced the fuel lines. They were original, and one of them started to weep. So, we just replaced all of them. If you get one of these cars, make the fuel lines your first repair/replacement. If you smell raw fuel - stop immediately. There's quite a bit of history of Mondials and 308's igniting due to old fuel lines.

For the interior, I pulled all the leather parts out of the car, and used the Leatherique products to restore them. I patched the holes with small leather pieces I cut from excess leather under the seats, and had Leatherique match the original dye color from one of these same small pieces cut from under a seat. What a world of difference -- the leather became soft and supple and with the exception of the drivers seat -- all the leather now looks good as new. The drivers seat was too far gone to come completely back, but it does as least look presentable. Here's a thread I created on the process, showing all the steps and the results -- https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/and-so-it-begins-leather-restoration.502419/

I'd say we put about $500 in maintenance every year (oil changes, fluid changes, new tires (only once), vacuum lines, new battery). We will be doing the belt change this spring, and don't anticipate any issues. Our big expenses todate have been the fuel distributor ($500), Tires ($800), interior dye kit ($200), belt/service kit ($1000), new ignition wires ($200), AC Compressor ($200), new steering wheel ($300 -- I wanted a wood rimmed steering wheel).

Lots of parts on the car are shared with other makes, and that makes repairs somewhat cheaper. For example, the fuel injectors are the exact same part number as 1980's Mercedes 190s. For the coupe -- the sunroof motor and cables are the same units used in the Porsche 924/944. The power antenna unit is identical to a $60 unit sold at Autozone. The cold-start injector is the exact same part used on some Jags and Volvos. And the list goes on.

If you are comfortable doing most of your own maintenance, and willing to scrounge or locate parts from other than the Ferrari dealership -- the Mondial (and 308) can be very inexpensive to own and maintain. I think if you have Ferrari, or even the independent shops, do most of your maintenance, it will be very, very expensive.

As for driving the car -- before COVID shut things down, I tried to put an average of 100 miles a month on the car (I used to travel for work about 90%). I took her to all the local car shows, cars and coffee, etc. In the spring, that's at least one show per week here. Since COVID -- I've been lucky to get her out once a month! Even so, she runs like a champ. And speaking of running -- she likes to be driven hard (after warming her up!). She runs better after an "Italian Tune-up" drive! The car is a blast to drive, always puts a smile on my face. She sounds great -- especially when going under a bridge or overpass (we don't have many tunnels here in the DFW area).

After 6 years of ownership -- I have no desire to get rid of her -- still love every drive. Although, it seems to me that she might like a Testarossa as a garagemate!

Hope this helps with your search.

Sid

 

Sid,

Thanks for taking the time to share your story. Your car came out beautifully. I won't have the kind of help you had, but I do have a friend here that runs a shop that does a lot of custom/hot rod work and I tend to get great pricing from them. The gray XJS in my pictures was converted from the GM400 transmission to the 700R4 transmission, plus a Kilduff Lightning Rod shifter setup, at his shop. He also installed the TWR-inspired suspension pieces and has been my go-to guy for keeping the cars on the road when the problems advance beyond my mechanical understanding.

I am pleased to hear of your success in maintaining it as a frequent driver. I'm not all that surprised; I am of the opinion that higher-mileage cars, if they're still on the road after 30 years, are the "good" ones, and the bad ones have already weeded themselves out or have become parts cars.

I am accustomed to fueling issues. People crap on Jaguar for the Lucas electrical components, but I've found the much larger issue is the fuel systems. I have smelled raw gas before on my XJ6 only to open the hood and see the car doing an imitation of the fountains at Caesar's Palace. I've replaced pretty much every fuel component on the XJ6 and probably three-quarters of them on the XJS. I feel good about where both cars are at right now, but you never say it's done.

I'm not sure I'll ever be able to complete such a full and complete restoration of surface items the way you have, but I do intend to keep it in working order and give it a good home inside a comfy garage, and exercise it regularly. I don't know how long it will take me to find what I seek, because I am sensitive to the low-volume production numbers of this car and someone with a restored example might not want it to go to someone like me. It's for that reason that I am pretty much looking for the same kind of car that my XJ6 and XJS are: Well-worn but fairly reliable drivers, a little rough around the edges but not so much as to be falling apart or anything close to that.

One more car pic for this thread: This is a Mitsubishi Starion (Chrysler Conquest) that I also own. Another low-priced car when I got it, it had rust issues and needed a bit of engine sorting. I now have about 180k on it and will take her just about anywhere. It came to me a bright (but very faded and oxidized) red, and I changed it to what is actually a Jeep factory color ("Anvil"). The running theme here to both it and my Jags is that I will only go around on this world once -- and for how long, I don't know, but I hope to have another 40 years of driving left in me -- and if I ever have to wait to make a car "perfect," I probably won't get to enjoy it like I want to.

Jess

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Hi Jess

Love the pic of your Starion. I haven't seen one of those in a long time!

As for a Mondial -- these cars are very mechanically simple. If you can maintain a 12cyl Jag, then you should have little to no problem with a Mondial. Plus, there's some truly amazing help available here on FCHAT and youtube. Almost anything you need to fix -- there's a high probability of a step-by-step thread here, or a video tutorial on youtube.

Also, check out the 308 section, as (year for year) the Mondials are mechanically identical to the 308s. One quick word of advice -- the non-t Mondials are easier to work on (Mondial 8, QV, 3.2). The t's changed the engine layout from transverse to longitudinal -- and that makes belt changes much more difficult.

And, as long as you don't take the car to Ferrari for maintenance -- it can be very inexpensive to maintain. For my car, I haven't done a restoration, so much as just maintaining her in her current condition. I did the interior out of necessity, as it was trashed. But everything else, I leave in original condition. All the dings, scrapes, chips -- I call those "earned battle scars". My Mondial is a perfect looking car -- at 50ft. However, not having a perfect car lets me use her as you do -- drive anywhere and don't worry about "damage" or "depreciation" due to use. Also, as a side benefit, when I go to car shows (if those ever come back), I was able to let kids (and adults) sit behind the wheel. Mine was usually one of the few Ferraris that kids could get in and have their parents take pics. It's really rewarding to see a youngster with a huge beaming smile sit behind the wheel. Hopefully -- those kids will become the next gen of car enthusiasts. At one show, there was a dad whom brought his 10yo son and all his friends to the show as a "sort-of" birthday party. They all got to sit in the car and get pics taken. The dad told me after the pics that this made their day.

Take your time and you'll find the right car. It took me about 2 years to find my car. Although, my criteria was a little narrow - I wanted a non-red Coupe. I specifically did not want a convertible, as the tops are just (in my opinion) too much trouble to keep maintained! Even the top on my 67 Karmann Ghia vert -- is a PITA. Like you, I also wanted a driver -- not a garage queen. For the Mondial 8s -- those were only sold in North America in Coupe form (no vets). For the QVs -- only about 60 of those were coupes -- all the rest were verts. And for the 3.2 and t -- I think even fewer of those were coupes. So, for me, the available pool of cars was fairly small. I think that both the vert and the coupe are great looking cars -- I just didn't want to deal with another convertible top!

Here's an image I saved off FCHAT several years ago that shows the number of Mondials imported to North America.

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Sid