812 VS Rumors | Page 135 | FerrariChat

812 VS Rumors

Discussion in 'F12/812' started by Frenzisko, Feb 10, 2018.

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  1. aobao1993

    aobao1993 Formula Junior

    Feb 3, 2017
    415
    2.1?So fast?
     
  2. Forza Scuderia

    Forza Scuderia Formula Junior

    Jan 13, 2015
    571
    Yeah yeah but that wasn’t marketed as a limited number car. That was a time limited production car. A Pista Spider is still a very exclusive and pretty rare car even though they made over 1,000 of them.
     
  3. Forza Scuderia

    Forza Scuderia Formula Junior

    Jan 13, 2015
    571
    #3353 Forza Scuderia, Jan 21, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2021
    OK that is a credible possibility. However, that would only make sense if they are calling it the GTO. So if other people start hearing the same production numbers for each version that would be a strong indication that it is going to be called GTO. I would be really surprised if they ended up only making 250 apertas. That would be them leaving $300-million on the table by not making another 249. Just for some naming symmetry? Hard to believe but I guess it’s not out of the question. Even though they recently used it on the 599 there is no law preventing them from using it on this car.
     
  4. MidnightRun

    MidnightRun Karting

    Nov 4, 2006
    152
    Question for y'all ... what prevents Ferrari from handling the 812 VS the same way as the F40? Both are special cars intended to be special. Why can't Ferrari celebrate the end of an era (traditional NA front engined unassisted v12 cars) with an extraordinary car available to all who desire one? Does the car need to be treated as a reward for VVIPs? Can't VVIP reward be accomplished through the upcoming La Ferrari replacement and Icona cars? Just asking.
     
  5. SeattleStew

    SeattleStew Formula Junior
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 10, 2020
    983
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    Too many people caught up in short term ROI after watching what the TDF did. Hoping to be able to latch on to it. A Ferrari is only as good as it’s ROI to some.

    No matter what, the car will be sought after whenever the V12 is no longer. Even if they produce 2-3 thousand of them. They might just have to wait 10 years instead of 10 months.

    Would I love to be able to get a VS? Yes, absolutely. Am I expecting to? No. Maybe I’ll get pleasantly surprised and it’s as easy to get as a pista.
     
    ewright likes this.
  6. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey F1 Rookie
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    Mar 3, 2012
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    UK
    Some good thoughts in this post, had me thinking a bit. First about the strategy to build what the market demands. I think I will be in a position to get a limited car, therefore I 'secretly' prefer that the car is limited. My interest is not to make money from a car but to own, use and keep it. However, I won't deny that it adds to the warm feeling of ownership when you know you can keep the car a very long time and it won't ever make you feel that is an expensive thing to do. Our Speciale is worth around the same as I paid for it after 6 years and 13,000 amazing miles. I didn't have to buy any other cars to get it - it was our first factory-ordered Ferrari, late in the order cycle and I may never buy a car as good value as that again, including cars that increase in value but that I don't put so many miles on and had to have bought a number of other cars to get considered for.

    I have really enjoyed owning all the cars I have bought since - even the 'expensive' ones. Taken individually, the depreciation set against the use I got from them is about what you would expect to pay for such a premium experience as owning and driving a Ferrari - if I ended up owning an 812 VS and it depreciated, I won't think Ferrari owes me anything (though I would certainly slow down a bit). But, having paid the cost to be a committed buyer, I won't feel bad if that should have some benefit when cars that won't be produced in high numbers come around. By definition that means that some who want the car wouldn't get one.

    If I wasn't in that position, I would, of course, prefer that they build as many as possible so that I could buy an 812 VS and there are undoubtedly arguments to be made for that approach. But would that be a good thing for Ferrari? One of the things that keeps us coming back is that there is an element of 'unobtanium' or exclusivity to the whole experience. It takes effort in life for most people to work themselves into a position to be able to indulge a passion like this. For some, who become particularly wealthy (and develop an aversion to being told 'no' along the way) Ferrari ownership becomes a challenge - they want what is hard to get (and often throw toys out of the pram when they are told they can't!). That mentality is how they are in the position of being able to afford Ferraris in the first place. The moment you can get it and it becomes familiar, it loses some interest. You might find yourself saying "that's not me - I'm only here for the driving" but even then, if you took the car to a track you are doing the same thing - seeking increased fun by mastering the car, or getting a better laptime. To some degree, whatever type of Ferrari buyer we are, we are all trying to acquire something difficult to achieve.

    Limiting cars drives us all crazy. We all want them. I know my tastes tend towards the sportier products. But if, in some parallel universe, the Pistas, Speciales and TDFs depreciated at twice the rate, I'm pretty sure I would not automatically choose one over their already brilliant standard versions. I think most people would feel that way and think much harder whether they really needed the double-depreciation VS version. Even so, I still might choose the hardcore car but it would inevitably slow me down a bit. Maybe a lot. But back in the real world, when a virtually depreciation-free, hardcore car feels like something of a reward for being a good customer it becomes absolutely irresistible.

    Here's the counterpoint. Limiting cars always brings with it the manufacturer, dealer and enthusiasts' worst nightmare - the flipper! Some cars are flipped by people who are otherwise very loyal to the brand and have bought many cars. I can live with that for very rare customers. But too many cars seem to get flipped quickly, for profit. In the UK, Ferrari have worked much harder to stop this than Porsche seem to have done. Still, it leaves customers unsure if the dealer is just abusing them for their own ends (many will say this is the case but in my dealership, where I know many of the VIP customers, the good cars do end up in their hands and they either still own them or have used them and sold them back through the dealer). So much negative feeling from customers to the brand is generated from this lack of trust, be it deserved or not.

    Maybe Ferrari already tried to build a VS car that is less limited - the Pista, which according to some was built in huge quantities. But people who claim that also tend make a multiplicity of comments to the effect that this is an example of Ferrari disrespecting the customer "now that they are a listed company". How can they win with us?! They are the most valuable brand in the world, they build amazing products, have an incredible heritage but have managed to acquire a customer base who criticise them for building too few and too many at the same time! We're a fickle bunch...

    In the end, they will do what they want to do, for reasons they believe important. I don't think there is too much room for the kind of sentiment that says "we'll build loads of these to reward everyone, because there might not be another V12 VS". I rather think their mentality is "we want unobtanium, because we want to keep the crowd hungry for what we're up to next - they think they won't like our hybrid era, watch this..."

    The second thing in your post was very interesting, and far too complicated to think through quickly. I do agree that the 20th Century and now the 21st Century, post Covid, do indeed teach us that things can change very quickly. Without getting into a long debate about that, I think it is helpful to learn not to take ourselves too seriously. Where car buying is concerned, it doesn't (or shouldn't) define us, it doesn't make us good or bad people, it doesn't even make us better than the next man or woman. It is only an expression of what we like. If it's all gone tomorrow - and it could be - we'll find something else to express ourselves with and enjoy, no doubt.
     
    stavura, Bundy, karajank and 8 others like this.
  7. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey F1 Rookie
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    Mar 3, 2012
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    Hmm, sounds far too kind if you ask me but thanks anyway. Truthfully, there are a very many contributors on here who have incisive knowledge, engaging views and a great way of articulating them. Sometimes with humour ;)

    I get the point you are making about 799, but the GTO was 499 from memory and they went to 799 with TDF. I would not be surprised if they couldn't help themselves. The key question is whether they could sell 999 at a limited edition kind of price. I think they could. Here's an alternative. I'm not sure why they would build less convertibles than coupes. 799 of each might satisfy the need to stretch production enough while still keeping each model technically as rare as the TDF. I would prefer a GTS VS, but not really because it is rarer (though if I could get one and it was uber rare, no worries!) If I was given a straight choice - pick either - and they both had the same rarity, I would still pick the spider version. About half of would-be owners would do the same I guess. 1,598 cars sold at a high price with the same rarity as a TDF. Win, win, win!
     
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  8. Forza Scuderia

    Forza Scuderia Formula Junior

    Jan 13, 2015
    571
    #3358 Forza Scuderia, Jan 21, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2021
    As always, your posts #3356 and #3357 were awesome and extremely well thought out.

    Let me stand on top of a soap box with a megaphone here . . . “They are NOT going to make a ‘limited edition of 999.” Imagine talking to your salesperson at your local Ferrari dealer and they say ‘Yeah this is extremely limited, we’re only making a thousand.’ I mean people would just laugh in their face. 1,000 is not extremely precious and limited. And 999 is for all intents and purposes 1,000.

    I think it was a great observation to say that the Ferrari owner base gives them hell when they make so little that too many people CAN’T get them ( 499 to 799 ) and we also give them hell when they make enough that a good amount of people CAN get them ( roughly 3,500 Pistas ) because they don’t trade up dramatically in the secondary market like a high profile IPO.

    Also let me dispel once and for all any notion that they are going to make any more than 499 Apertas. They aren’t going to. I’m 99.9% sure about that. Since a convertible is more desirable to most buyers, that is what gets used as the special reward for the ultra important customers of Ferrari. For further proof take a look at these precedents:

    1. 430 Scuderia coupe unlimited but Scuderia Spider 16M limited to 499
    2. 458 Speciale coupe unlimited but 458 Speciale Aperta limited to 499
    3. LaFerrari coupe 499 but LaFerrari Aperta limited to 299

    It’s going to be 799 coupes and 499 apertas or something very close to this. If you didn’t know now you know.
     
  9. day355

    day355 Formula 3

    Jun 25, 2006
    2,058
    Just a question please, is it the number of cars produced the most important thing or the qualities of this car ?!
    I m one of those who thinks the pleasure is driving it as often as possible. So, what does it matter if they make 800 or 3000 !!!
    A garage queen is the saddest thing ...
     
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  10. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    22,739
    You may want to check your numbers.
    Both are incorrect.

    And LFA was 210.

    Marcel Massini
     
    pingit00, GK18, Nelsonc275 and 9 others like this.
  11. MidnightRun

    MidnightRun Karting

    Nov 4, 2006
    152
    Following up on my prior post (3354), doesn't Ferrari's treatment of the F430 Scuderia and 458 Speciale suggest that Berlinetta variants of special end-of-run cars don't have to be treated as rewards to VVIP customers, but rather, can be a treat for passionate Ferrari owners/enthusiasts who prefer sportier variants? Does anyone regard as less desirable, Scuds and Speciales because of more liberal production? Doesn't Ferrari benefit from allowing driving enthusiasts like me to savor their most spirited driving machines? Can't VVIP reward be simultaneously achieved by Spyder/Aperta variants, Iconas, and hyper/halo-cars? Again, just asking.

    A global economic sh!tstorm is already in progress. It's only going to get worse. There's much to support the speculation that a global depression is down the road - one that's going to make the Great Depression look like a walk in the park. Current profit maximization, wide spread business good will, and preservation of VVIP satisfaction could be achieved by handling the 812 VS in the same manner of the F430 Scud and 458 Speciale. Am I wrong?
     
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  12. Scraggy

    Scraggy Formula 3

    Apr 2, 2012
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    Marcel they are trading at £30,000 under list for a new one in the UK already. New car.
     
  13. Scraggy

    Scraggy Formula 3

    Apr 2, 2012
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    The 37,134th “reliable source” told me today that unlike F12 which was in build in coupe the 812 has ceased in coupe and VS only available in GTS cabriolet. Who knows, but yet another quite reliable source and guess they have ceased making the body shells entirely.
     
  14. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    Apr 6, 2004
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    NO joy in 'Mudville'...:eek:

    Romans must have gotten in and OUT at the right time.:D
     
  15. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    Those statistics are pre-RACE (stock symbol) (even though production of (2) and (3) continued post-RACE)

    Only statistic we have in the post-RACE era is Icona, 499, and at nearly $2m each, that is a very different category, even if the 812VS is $1m.

    Thus far, no post-RACE regular production special version (only Pista thus far) has been numbered.

    If Ferrari believes the market is able to absorb 1000+, then will not be numbered. This not pre-RACE Ferrari any more. This is the Ferrari that celebrates the occasion of 10,000+ annual production vehicles. And is looking to "double that" with the FUV...perhaps following the path Porsche took 20 years ago...and with the 'EV' future, make the revenue while you can because "anyone" can make an EV with big performance, at least in a straight line.
     
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  16. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

    Oct 1, 2004
    3,242
    Austin TX
    Isn't the 'great reset' erasing all debt and starting over again?

    :)
     
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  17. Napoli

    Napoli Formula Junior

    Nov 18, 2017
    958
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    NOYB, Ray!
    Too funny, JTSE30! ;)
     
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  18. Wheels1

    Wheels1 F1 Rookie
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    Oct 23, 2007
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    Not the LA Ferrari replacment, new engine, not V12
     
  19. Scraggy

    Scraggy Formula 3

    Apr 2, 2012
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    That’s trade I mean, if you want readies not dreams !
     
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  20. Scraggy

    Scraggy Formula 3

    Apr 2, 2012
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    Porsche already mastered non straight line based on my Taycan drive
     
  21. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    Was it you that mentioned the lovely Boxster Spyder in the summer with a manual shift trans?
     
  22. khal360

    khal360 Formula Junior

    Feb 17, 2005
    282
    Not sure if it was me but I have a 718 spyder and it’s like a go kart. Not crazy fast nor civilized but fun!! GTS will be a very different and very fun brother.
     
    of2worlds likes this.
  23. JagShergill

    JagShergill Formula 3

    Dec 31, 2014
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    Perfectly said !
     
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  24. MidnightRun

    MidnightRun Karting

    Nov 4, 2006
    152
    My bad. Draconian regulations followed by Covid restrictions haven’t resulted in the permanent shuttering of tens of thousands of businesses. Sub-prime auto loans, which are now distressed in record numbers, have not been collateralized. Covid hasn’t , and isn't, rewrittng the face of commercial real estate. There's no bubble in the stock market. Global unemployment is low. Helicopter money IS a true panacea, and endless debt is sustainable. All is good. Be happy. My prior post, I feel so dumb. Forgive me, I now see the light.
     
    Veloce12 likes this.
  25. Forza Scuderia

    Forza Scuderia Formula Junior

    Jan 13, 2015
    571
    #3375 Forza Scuderia, Jan 21, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2021
    Your thinking is not unreasonable and I believe that the way the Pista was handled and produced was due to what you mentioned ... they are a public company now ... so produce more pieces and make that extra money for the shareholders. That was for a V8 though ... which they have 3 times the manufacturing capacity to produce. The V12 line is much much smaller and since they can’t make a huge number of V12s over a short two year run, I believe they will number limit them to a combined 1,298 units in total ( 799 coupe and 499 aperta ) over a two year run. Also keep in mind ... and this is important ... by number limiting them they can charge DOUBLE per car which would essentially QUADRUPLE their profit per car due to fixed costs. Furthermore ... and focus on this point now because it’s super important ... by limiting the number they can control allocation at the factory level ... and ... and ... they can select mainly from previous Tailor Made clients ... which will massively increase the average spec and take the profit margins to a higher level still.

    If you’re Ferrari ... do you make 799 and 499 at approximately $1-million a copy plus a ton of Tailor Made options ... knowing for sure you will sell out in minutes and have customers and dealers groveling for the car WHILE MAKING EVEN MORE PROFITS IN TOTAL or would you want the order book uncertainty of an open ended two year production run where clients aren’t fighting over allocations, aren’t loading them up with options and you make less money while having to build 2 or 3 times as many cars. And all the headache of 3 times as many complicated build sheets and customer requests. With all of my heart I want more of this likely V12 to be available for more Ferraristi. Every business angle you look at though it screams limited number production for the multiple reasons cited in my recent posts. These conversations are starting to become circular now and people are posing questions and musings which have already been addressed in the prior recent posts. The reasons are as I have stated, more than a few times now, so will not be getting into them any further. The final prediction is 799 coupe and 499 aperta.
     
    ilcapodizurigo likes this.

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