Consistent C. Stradale Misfire: running out of ideas

clean ALL the engine bay grounds and in the wheel wells ... Also isn't a bad idea to add another ground to the engine ECU to frame.

Did you swap engine ECUs left and right? Do the faults move?

 

yea, i'll clean the grounds.

I've replaced ignition ecus with another set. No cure.

 

Winter time! Temperature is about 0 celcius ( 32 F).
Now its my annual routine to tackle this problem.
New observation that I could have missed from previous winters:
1. the idle speed is about 1400rpm instead of 1700 rpm in warmer climates.
2. if I shut the car down after initial 20 second running at 1400rpm, and re-start , it will go to 1700rpm nicely.

What i'm planning to do, is to use some hot water pouches to warm up the coils before starting up and see if it still misfires. The dilemma is, my coils are new, only 1000 miles or so , and about 2 years old. If I warm up the coil and see no misfire, there's pretty much nothing I can do about it, because new coils would just be the same. Or you can treat this logic as to elimination of coil problems.

I hate to replace the ignition cable and do compression/leakdown test as those are the last thing I'd do.

 

so I used my idling f430 as a heat oven and put all 8 coils into its engine bay. after 30 min or so I took them out. Within 10 min, I installed them into my stradale that sits outside , which is around 0F degrees.
still misfires.

 

Cold compression test done.
Ambient temp: about 4 degrees Celsius.
One new, fully charged 60AH battery in one go, no recharging during the 8x crankings. ( so take that into account for the readings, maybe)
Key off after each crank to save battery.
Sequence of test: cyl 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8
Did not remove the throttle body.

cyl 1 : 105 psi
cyl 2: 106 psi
cyl 3: 103 psi
cyl 4: 109 psi
cyl 5: 102 psi
cyl 6: 97 psi
cyl 7: 105 psi
cyl 8: 99 psi

 

Image Unavailable, Please Login Remove upstream O2 sensors and fiberoptic scope the cats. I had a strange misfire problem last year on a 360 and the pre-cat had disintegrated.

 

the car is euro, so it only has main cats, maybe I can look into the those

 

The effect would be the same.

 

Hot compression test done
ambient temp = 12 Celsius
idle the car until oil temp = 75 degrees celcius
removed all plugs and coils in 45 minutes.
Did not fully charge the battery, but the car was run on public street about 30 minutes after the cold test. Battery is a bought new 20 days ago. Car starts right up after the cold test and the hot test---- it has juice. Key off after each crank to save battery.
Sequence of test: cyl 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8
Did not remove the throttle body. However, when I was testing cyl 3, I did remove the throttle body and run the test again, the pressure was kept the same.
Same pressure gauge used as cold compression test.

cyl 1 98 psi
cyl 2 97 psi
cyl 3 98 psi
cyl 4 94 psi
cyl 5 101 psi
cyl 6 99 psi
cyl 7 102 psi
cyl 8 100 psi

damn

 

Was there an end to this tale??

 

I don't know this specific case but I have seen "cold start phantom misfires" on the 360 as have many tech's around the world and they can indeed trigger a CEL.

In many of the case it was due to software and most tech's simply clear the codes with a fault code meter only for them to return.

AV in the uk spent years chasing this on the 360 and eventually we got together and did a full analysis and data logging session identifying the root cause, and yes it was in the software. We developed a software fix for it and yes its not been a problem since so its definitely not a sensor/actuator or engine compression issue in many of the normal cases. We all got to appreciate that by large volume car manufacturer standards the production volumes where very low so not everything was fully completed as one would expect. Later cars get some of the updates so are better in this regard but its not completely eliminated on any factory model.

 

Strong Work Guys.

 

No
I was thinking it is a mechanical issue, ie. low compression.
I'll have to open up the engine to determine, which I yet to have the time to do so.

 

We talked about this trev, in private, and I showed you my CS ecu dump and determined the software is the latest.

 

Hit me up again .. lots can be now determined with my advanced realtime data logging upgrades on the firmware side!

Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk

 

In the mean time, I drove an Internet pal's 360 (not stradale) last winter.
It has the exact symptom as my stradale. random misfire when cold, all good when warm.

 

skype

 

Cold start misfire has been an issue since these cars were new. As a past dealership employee, I can tell you that is was addressed when they were under warranty and no resolution was ever found. I have always believed it was a software glitch because and immediate turn off and restart would have the engine running normal. I am glad to see 360trev has found the issue. Perhaps has can reflash you ECU and take care of the cold start issue.

 

does normal 360 modena has this issue too, back in the day?

 

The CS’s seem to suffer more than the regular cars, I think it’s probably down to the exhaust pulses when it’s cold. Trev has it nailed though, it’ll need a remap too sort it using the “cold misfire” patch.

 

I wonder if the "misfire" signal was picked up by the 4x knock sensors?
How does the ecu determine it was a misfire, for this particular car.

 

As it was explained to me: Knock sensor will detect the "sound" and the ECU looks at the sensor that is hearing it, that narrows it two two choices. Then the ECU checks crank speed pulsing and determines the cylinder by the lack of acceleration that should occur with proper ignition. Knowing the firing order, it extrapolates the cylinder number and throws a code.

If it is a straight misfire, the ECU just picks up the lack of crank acceleration and figures it out from there.
Now, it has been my experience in diagnosing these issues that the codes cylinder is rarely correct or even on the correct bank of cylinders.

I agree that standard 360s are less prone to the cold start issue than 360CS. 612s are terrible with it. 430s also have the issue. It is nice to see that someone has addressed the issue and can provide a "fix".

 

I had a cold start low idle issue with my then newly acquired, used 2009 430 Scuderia in 2015. If I immediately shut down and restarted, it would then have a proper, higher cold idle. I mentioned this at Ferrari of Seattle, and they mentioned it was a known issue, and there was a software update. I took it in, and only $100 or so. Problem was permanently fixed and never returned.

 

I know and I do have experience with the "low idle" thing you guys are talking about..
It is TOTALLY DIFFERENT from my misfire issue.

When you have a "low idle restart will cure" issue, you are talking about sub 1000rpm cold start rpm.
When my car having the misfire, it is idling at 1200rpm-1300rpm instead of sub-1000rpm.

Also, when I say I have a "cold start misfire" , the "cold" means the environmental temp is sub 10 degree celcius ( about 50 F), in contrary to a 'unwarmed up" car startup.

I.E. If I start the car at an enviromental temp above 10C, THE CAR WILL NOT MISFIRE. This means that, in where I live, only during Nov.--March will the car misfire. In other months of the year, the car starts like champ.

From my observation,
each misfire startup I'll see a 1200-1300rpm idle, when environmental temp is lower than 10 c and car is parked overnight.
each non-misfire startup i'll see a 1400rpm idle, when environmental temp is higher than 10 c and car is parked overnight.
If my car is warmed up already, no matter what enviromental temp is, the car will NOT misfire.


TO SUM UP.
IF you live in Florida, you'll never even know the car has this misfire problem.
You'll only know the car has a mifire problem if you live in Boston. Even in boston, if you only drive the car in summer, you won't know it.

 

You are being politically correct. [emoji6]


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